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[man laughs] Rugby, it's a dangerous sport though.
It's a lot harder than American football.
[woman] I know it's like a tackling sport though, that's what I do know.
Where you tackle each other. [laughs]
[man 2] I've seen way more people playing it on the park in the last few years.
It definitely feels like it's a sport that appeals to everyone.
[Beno Obano] I always feel like sport has a way of bringing people together.
It brings people from just different parts of the world.
Fortunately, I've had the chance to play rugby
and I personally don't know what my life would be like if I didn't play rugby.
It'd be vastly different.
[TV commentary] That is monstrous! What a hit!
-Where that heck did that come from? -Huge pass! That is sensational!
...Kick across the field, some fabulous handling.
Stepping on the gas now, heading for the corner.
Well finished!
Oh, lovely pass to Obano. Obano explodes through that first tackle.
Up to five metres short.
This is Genge, just charging into the opposition.
Yes, the try but what about the pass?
And Watson is on to it. Pure quality!
Anthony Watson!
-And he's still going. Oh, what a try! -[whistle blows]
Itoje! Oh, my goodness!
Maro Itoje! From nowhere!
You have to say they thoroughly deserve that.
Can he get there?
Heading for the corner. What a score!
-[crowd cheering wildly] -Oh, my goodness me!
[rap music: "Of Course" by Headie One]
Rugby is not really a thing for Nigerians in general.
Initially, rugby was very alien to me.
[Maro Itoje] From my birth to 11,
I had very little interest in rugby, if any interest at all.
[Beno] I didn't really know how to play rugby for the longest time, like.
[Maro] I didn't know the rules, I didn't really know the game.
I was brought into school and told, "This is what you're going to have to do
because you're a big boy."
[Beno] When I went to that first school, it was sort of like,
"Give Beno the ball, let Beno go and score a try."
That was it, that was it from 11 to 16, essentially.
I didn't have a clue how to play.
I went to my second school and I had to sort of learn how to play rugby there.
And I remember when I was 17, it was like,
"Bens, you're supposed to be the guy but, you know,
you don't really know how to play rugby!" [laughs]
So I spent that whole summer like watching
South Africa/England. I think that was the tour of 2012.
I think that's what happened.
And it's mad because JJ, like, one of my best friends now,
that's where he got his debut,
and at the time, obviously, I didn't know anything about rugby.
I had to learn what was good and what you're supposed to do in rugby.
[shouting]
[crowd whopping and clapping]
It's a little bit weird that, like, I didn't really know how to play rugby,
like, the intricacies and the nuances of the game,
cos essentially that's the part of the game now that I enjoy the most,
the tactics and the little bits that people don't really understand.
Those parts I find the greatest part of the game and it's weird, at the time,
I knew completely nothing about it.
I didn't really have a vision of rugby. Obviously, it was all very new to me
and the school I was in was first and foremost very academic,
so the reason why I was there was academic.
Passed it doing great 11-plus exams and I was there for studying.
So nobody in that school had been an example
to go on and play professional in that modern, modern day.
[music: "Wetin Day" by Odunsi]
[Maro] So I was born and raised in North London.
Grew up in the earliest parts of my life in Cricklewood,
then moved to Edgware in the suburbs of North London.
My name is Maro Itoje.
England, Saracens and British and Irish Lions rugby player.
I had to let them know, innit? I had to let them know!
Sometimes they might be sleepy, I had to let them know!
[laughter]
My parents are both Nigerian, proudly Nigerian parents.
They have big, big values on respect, culture, discipline, et cetera, et cetera,
so all of those types of things were instilled on to myself and to my siblings.
Our parents gave us everything we needed to do to succeed in life
and made sure we were grateful for it.
There was emphasis on, like, being active and living a healthy lifestyle,
but in terms of us, the push was for education.
It was to do well at school.
[Biyi Alo] Growing up, I was pushed a lot academically.
My mum wanted the best for me, me and my sister.
Growing up without a father in the house, the emphasis was on educate yourself,
work as hard as you can and you could do anything.
Hello. My name's Biyi Alo, I'm a tight-head prop at Wasps RFC.
My early life - I was born in Paddington.
So I was born in West London, grew up always in North West London
with me, my mum and my sister.
So moved around from like Kingsbury to Edgware,
and, yeah, grew up in Edgware.
I used to play football up until I was 11,
playing every single day, after school, during school, in your lunch breaks
and I sort of really loved it, played for my primary schools
and then started playing on Saturday, Sunday league and then
was looking to hopefully take that quite seriously.
When I went to secondary school, I managed to get into a good grammar school,
which was known for playing rugby in the winter and then cricket in the summer,
so unfortunately my football dreams had to stop there.
[Beno Obano] I was so certain that I was going to be a footballer
and I just used to love football, like it was ridiculous how much I loved football.
That was really my life.
[he laughs]
Yeah, what's going on?
I'm Beno Obano and I'm a rugby player for Bath.
When I was really young, I used to write to, like,
every football club in London, pretty much.
I wrote to Charlton, to Tottenham, to Crystal Palace, to Fulham.
Like, "Just bring me in," like. "When I can play, just bring me in."
None of them replied apart from Fulham, which is - shout Fulham for that.
And then, I went to a trial after school, actually.
I must have been like eight years old or something, eight, nine years old.
And I went to a trial in Brixton at some astroturf
and I played a little bit and I thought I balled out, I thought I really balled out.
And next thing I know, there was like a voicemail,
like a couple of days later saying, "Yeah.
He just needs to lose a little bit of weight, he's a bit big," like!
And that was, that was my football dreams ended right there.
I played for Dulwich Hamlet, which is a team near me,
and had a little Charlton trial later on when I was probably about 13, 14,
and that didn't bang either, so it was just tough luck, innit?
I was fortunate enough to get sent to like a good Catholic school.
My mum's a Catholic and she really wanted us to go to a Catholic school,
so she sent us to a school across the way up in South West London.
We used to travel ages just to get there.
Everyone in the area thought it was a bit weird that they were sending us
so far to go to school, but obviously it worked out.
The greatest thing that that school did for me,
although I'm not a big fan of the school...
It played rugby, so it basically turned me into a rugby player,
which I guess is sort of like a family sport now, you can say, innit?
[Maro] Beno is my first cousin.
He was born three days before myself, he's my senior.
There's a lot of similarity between myself and Beno,
but there's also a lot of differences.
[Beno] Me and Maro were brought up in London, I guess,
completely different sides of London.
He's from South London, I'm from North London.
Similar household upbringings, a little bit different, um,
in the sense of areas and what we got up to and stuff.
[Maro] He's short and stocky. I'm tall and handsome.
I can play basketball, he can't play basketball.
At all stages we're... we're very close.
So he's like, he's my cousin but he's also like one of my closest friends.
[Beno] I was born at King's College Hospital. Shout, Camberwell!
And then we lived in Peckham, in Southampton Way,
when we were really young and then we moved ten minutes down the road
to Lordship Lane and we just lived off Lordship Lane in East Dulwich,
and that's where I grew up.
[music: "Shomo" by DRB Lasgidi Feat. Olamide]
Yeah, I'm like a first gen Nigerian, I guess.
Like, both my parents were born in Nigeria
and they came over here and had me over here.
They didn't really follow rugby. Like, they...
I think my mum was scared for me to play rugby at the beginning.
I had to remind her, "I'm the biggest man on the field, Mum, so it's alright!"
But, yeah, then they've sort of grown to love rugby
and the maddest thing is that, like, now,
now they just love it, like,
and they scream as if they know what they're talking about.
They have no clue, so...
But it's cool now, innit, like? It's what we do.
I remember growing up and looking at rugby players,
and I didn't necessarily see too many rugby players that looked like me.
And I was drawn to the players such as...
like Ugo Monye, Topsy Ojo, who kind of looked like me.
It wasn't anything that I'd seen around me that I could say,
"Right, I want to be like that guy," or "I want to be like this guy."
It was more like, "I enjoy it, so take it day by day, session by session
and what happens happens."
[men shouting, whistle blows]
[Maro] I probably didn't really think about rugby as a potential career
up until the age of 16.
From 11 to 16, I was purely playing because it was a cool thing to do,
because it was fun, because I was meeting new people
having... socialising in different circles.
Probably when I got to the age of 16, where...
I started to know a few guys in the years ahead of me
who were then getting contracts and then becoming professional.
It dawned on me that this could be a thing if I dedicate myself to it.
[Beno] I always think that like glory is the hardest thing to attain in life.
Glory is essentially an honourable achievement
and a lot of people go through life
without... a real honourable achievement.
That's why I love sport and glory
because it gives you that chance to achieve glory
and achieve something that's very difficult to attain.
In the US, they use sport a lot to change their current circumstances.
They use sport as a currency.
Whilst in the UK, we don't do it so much.
Well, we do in the sense of football but, in general, we don't.
As like people from minority, black backgrounds,
we don't usually use sport
as a way to change everybody's circumstances around us
and I think we need to use sport more as a means of social mobility.
Back home, so many people work hard
and there's a myth that hard work equals success and wealth,
but, essentially, you need a plan to work hard in.
People aren't aware of the opportunities for them.
Therefore they can't even get a plan
to then work hard, if that makes sense.
They have to be aware of opportunities in order to take those opportunities,
but they don't know about those opportunities.
And I feel like rugby's one of those opportunities
and that's why I feel like rugby has a huge image problem.
That's why it's important to have people like Genge in the sport
in order to change, change that narrative.
[Ellis] No one knows that rugby was a professional sport where I grew up.
Like fuck, literally, no one.
I'm Ellis Genge. I play for Leicester Tigers and England Rugby.
[music: "On Deck" by Abra Cadabra]
So I was born in a place called Knowle West in Bristol.
I grew up on Andover Road. It's just off the roundabout, for anyone who knows it.
Yeah, it was a lively neighbourhood. I don't really know how to describe it.
You'd have to live there to sort of understand
the intricacies of the neighbourhood, but, yeah, it was colourful.
My dad's white. He loves football.
So that was one side of my family
and then, on the other side, my mum's mixed race.
A very small woman so it was sort of a mix of backgrounds.
You wouldn't traditionally put those two together.
Especially in the area and the sort of like time period they got together.
Yeah, it was a bit weird growing up, bit confused as to what was going on,
especially sort of knocking about the area.
We didn't really go out much, me and my sister.
We sort of just kicked about in the back garden.
I guess Mum and Dad were worried about what was...
what was going to happen if... if we ventured too far.
It was quite a... quite a community driven neighbourhood though.
It wasn't as if, like, we would have got kidnapped or anything aspect,
but it was more so, it was just easier to stay indoors and be safe and stuff.
Knowles, it was quite tough. I went to Knowle Park Junior School.
There wasn't much minority in our school. A few Asian kids.
But, yeah, I found myself sort of like telling people that I was white
and that I'd just come off holiday with a bit of a tan and stuff,
cos I could get away with it because I'm obviously not that dark-skinned
and having a white sister was much easier as well, so...
I was a bit young to be going on sunbeds though.
Obviously, some people caught on.
Just silly little stuff, like people calling me "Poo Boy".
There weren't that much hard racism, to be honest.
It was more, I guess, just ignorance of being so young and stuff,
and just teasing, but it's the culture you're brought up with in Knowle.
Not many black families and stuff, so, yeah, it was tough at the time,
but obviously I look back on it now with a smile,
and it makes you a bit stronger as a person.
My dad was always football orientated.
He used to take me to watch Rovers now and then,
and, obviously, football violence back then was quite prevalent,
so I sort of grew up around that.
He kept me far, far away from all the fighting and stuff,
obviously, being like six, seven years old.
Yeah, all I knew was football, really, up until the age of about ten, I think.
Then someone took me to cricket. I fucking hated cricket.
I tried boxing, karate, tried everything, I think,
cos a lot of sports clubs, a lot of youth centres where I live,
so I was never really deprived of sport.
It was just more so something I could stick to
and then, eventually, yeah, I sort of moulded into loving rugby.
[music: "Easy" by Razor and Filthy Gears]
I'd describe rugby as a really fun sport first and foremost.
It's fun, it's enjoyable but it's also very confrontational.
You've obviously got the wider confrontation
between your team and another team and then you've got the individual battles.
Yeah, rugby is an abrasive sport, it's very physical.
It's a sport for all shapes and sizes.
Tall, slim, short and a little bit rounder, rugby has the place for you.
[Biyi] It's easier than football, you know what I mean?
Everybody can play, you can get every type of person.
In football, me, 90 minutes, finished, you know what I mean?
But I can play rugby, so I think it's a lot more relatable sport
than people think, than people know.
What made me fall in love with it? I don't know.
That sense of camaraderie and all that.
I guess it's quite a team-orientated sport
and I don't want to say that just for the clout cos...
it's not what I'm about but, yeah, I just felt a part of something
and it was the first time I really had that feeling.
The fundamental values of rugby is based on respect.
Both teams, like we spend 80 minutes
looking to cause damage on one another but, after the game,
we shake hands and let bygones be bygones.
[Biyi] Rugby means a lot to me. I don't know whether subconsciously or whatever,
because I didn't grow up with a dad, I didn't grow up with a brother.
Maybe that's why I love it so much. I just love being around the guys.
I love pushing each other. I love the environment that it gives you,
even with some of the coaches.
I'd imagine that that's how a father would be with their son, sort of thing.
So I see how they're willing to push,
how they show genuine love in the environment
and everybody wants the best out of each other.
And then there's the working hard aspect, where you go to really dark places
with somebody that you see every single day and then there's the enjoyment.
So you're out on nights out, then you're seeing them happy with their families,
you're seeing them go through life and you get to do that together.
So you get to experience everything together and I think
that's something that I've cherished a lot from rugby.
That's something that I've not got anywhere else.
It's quite a macho sport, you can't shy away from it.
It's very manly, so to speak.
So a lot of the values are how you'd want to carry yourself as a man.
So you want to be strong, you want to be caring, you want to be driven.
[Beno] I feel like adversity reveals a man's true character
and in sport you're generally provided with quite a bit of adversity
and in rugby, in particular, quite a lot.
So I just feel like you grow as a person and as a character
when you play sport and you play rugby.
Essentially, you don't know how you're going to respond
to a particular challenge until you're immersed in that particular challenge.
Because I've seen many people falter
when they have been in that challenge,
whilst others have gone on to soar.
So that's why you have to be put in those situations
to know how you're going to respond.
Whether, like, it's injury, selection or criticism,
or the media or whatever, I feel like there just comes a point
where you have to decide who you're going to be.
Everyone always has a perception of who they want to be,
but there comes a point where you just have to do it
and that's what happens in rugby,
and that's one of the greatest things I think it's done for me.
We live in a more sensitive era and my generation's a little bit more sensitive
due to our parents' enabling.
Sort of epitomised by a counsel culture, which essentially means
a lot of people now are a lot more entitled to their feelings.
As a result of people being more entitled to their feelings,
it puts us in a position where people like to tell you about their feelings
and because of their feelings they want the world to bend towards them.
Whilst in, like, high-stakes performing and high-performance environments
that's just not the case, you just have to get it done the way it's done.
No one cares about how you feel.
And I feel like, personally, it develops resilience in an individual.
You build mental calluses and as a result you become more mentally robust.
And that's one of the traits that I think I've developed as my career's gone on.
[Maro] I think rugby, they're... they're happy for you to, in general,
express yourself but within the realms of the team environment
and, obviously, if you come from a background
that is not similar to the rest,
then, obviously, the way you express yourself can differ slightly.
All in all, it's quite accepting,
but there are times when it's a little bit tricky.
[Beno] When you're young, black and from London, I think -
you talk a little bit different and you listen to a little bit different music -
it's like there's often a tendency to see these kids as, like, brash.
When that's not the case, it's just that's who they are.
Like, if you were to come to their environment,
you'd probably be the odd one out, do you know what I mean?
So it's just... it's a weird, weird thing that goes on in this environment.
Oh, like, no doubt there's a rugby mould, like, of course there is.
There's always a mould everywhere you go.
There's always rules that you've got to abide by
and there's a law in this world, like, it's just the way it is.
I feel like there was definitely a history of,
you have to be a certain way straight down the line, sort of vibe.
You do feel the pressure to be a certain type of way
when you go into these environments.
The factors that people say that you have to... that you have to be
has no direct correlation between rugby.
It's just that it's not been seen before, so it's like,
you're not necessarily strong enough to hold onto your identity
when you come into an environment like that.
You should be and I'd love to have been,
but, naturally, you see guys more successful than you,
bigger, stronger, richer than you and you think,
"I'm not strong enough to just be myself now in this situation."
[Anthony] It's almost like a perception - until you've earned your stripes,
can you fully relax and be yourself?
And I do believe in the idea that you have to earn your stripes
but I don't believe in the idea that you have to be someone you're not.
I'm Anthony Watson, Bath and England rugby player.
[camera beeps]
What am I going to say? Born in '94!
Oh, my God!
So I was born in Ashford. My mum's Nigerian, my dad's English.
I've got an older brother who was born three years before me
and he had lived in Nigeria up until that point.
And then after I was born, we moved back to Nigeria.
So I lived in a place called Warri in Nigeria
till I was about two years old, two and a half.
And then my little brother was born and we moved back to England.
I feel like the game still is a bit backwards in terms of perceptions
and stuff that they have of people with colour.
It's very difficult, it's not an easy situation because...
especially for, I feel, for the players who come through of colour,
because I feel like there's a level of bias there.
Or they don't get the benefit of the doubt like players who aren't of colour,
you know, with certain attitudes or with the way that they do certain things.
And it actually doesn't affect how they play or how they train,
but they're almost on the back foot before they've started,
because of how they've been perceived.
There's a complex history but it's all a result of people's bias
and the portrayal of the black athlete in the media.
[music: "Dust" by Kwaku Asante"]
I think people like us are 100% breaking the mould of...
of the perception of a rugby player.
Breaking the mould doesn't necessarily have to be seen as a negative thing.
I think it's extremely positive because in the country that we're in,
in the world that we're in, there's a lot of people like us
and if they don't see people like them playing professional rugby,
achieving to some of the high standards that the boys have achieved,
they're going to think that, "I don't fit there."
I think representation matters,
but the lack of representation isn't the main issue.
I feel like the main issue is the perception of the sport.
The perception of the sport is that it's considered an elitist sport.
But it's a weird thing because to start playing rugby at a grass-roots level,
it's no more expensive than to play football.
And it's not a country club, like tennis or golf,
yet it's considered an elitist sport and that's generally because
it's played in private schools rather than in state schools.
So the overall issue is that it's a perception thing not a cost thing.
I'd probably say rugby does have a bit of a class problem still.
The main example I can think of at the moment is the way that
Genge answered one of those questions in the Six Nations.
I mean, before you get interviewed, yeah,
you'll have like your media officer come up to you and say like,
"You can't say this, you can't do that. We want to talk about this, not that."
I'm like, "Fuck me, do you want to do the interview?"
Here's the moment you've been waiting for, Ellis Genge.
[female interviewer] Yeah, who's enjoying a beer. It's well deserved.
Yeah, he was drinking a beer, which is not out of the ordinary for Genge at all.
I'm having a 330ml beer after a game of rugby.
Like, I've just been battered for however long.
People were saying how unprofessional he was in the way that he answered.
-I don't know, I can't remember. -[female interviewer laughs]
Although it was like 20 minutes ago.
Um... it's all a bit of a blur, happens quite quickly, don't it?
He was fully just being himself.
You know, he spoke exactly how he'd speak normally.
Like, you got a lot of sausages saying things that
just come into their head and like what are they on about?
I show a little bit of character and I just get slandered for it.
For me that was just a big, not a wake-up call,
but it was like alarm bells in my head were going off, like.
I don't understand how people can have such a problem with him
just answering a question how he wanted to answer a question.
I mean like, we go out and win in Scotland the way in that...
I was about to swear, sorry. ...in the rain, um...
and now everyone's singing our praises.
Whatever, innit? Like, we're on to the next job
and I'm sure we'll have more critics.
And, yeah, it was good to get the win, that's all I've got to say, to be honest.
[Anthony] There's a big void in terms of the relationship
between the media in this country and the players,
and I think it's like the chicken and the egg, which one's going to come first?
Because the players aren't going to open up and be themselves
round the media and then them go off and write a crazy story about you.
And likewise, the media aren't going to be, you know,
onboard until you give them something to write about.
Rugby has a perception of how you should be and how you act.
Certain aspects of personality have to be put to one side
and say, "Not today." Like, don't show this part because
that's not going to help you progress in your rugby career.
Fans and stuff aren't going to be able to see the true people behind
some of their... their role models and it's a bit sad, really.
The amount of players in rugby that must feel that type of squash, I guess,
to fit the mould and not be themselves, you know, it's not easy.
Music is huge for me. I'm not making excuses saying,
"Oh, rugby means you can't do music."
But your first priority is, "I've got to be a good rugby player."
You don't think I can bring that sort of part of me over here.
You think, right, I've got to impress these people
and I don't want them to think I don't take this thing seriously.
So for a long time I neglected music.
I've always been passionate about listening to music,
but I neglected my own music.
[piano plays]
So I was just nervous. I was like, "Oh, I'm a rugby player! I'm in the front row.
I'm not meant to be this emotional guy
talking about how you feel on an instrumental sort of thing."
But I definitely feel like it's changing and ever since I started to release music,
it's surprised me how many people have warmed to it, people that I thought
were straight down the line, rugby players, not much more else about them.
They've sent me personal, private messages.
They've come up to me, like, "B, when's the new music?"
And to me, it's so refreshing and it's almost like...
the rugby world was waiting for people to show their personality.
It was waiting for people to show themselves, just nobody ever did it.
Everybody was just like looking left and right,
like, "Are we supposed to do this?"
It's definitely changing and it's definitely got to a point where
your teammates want to know more about you and it helps you
on the pitch if you know the guy next to you.
My music doesn't jeopardise rugby but I'm trying to grow exponentially in both.
It's that belief in yourself that I always come back to.
You've got to belief in yourself and be yourself.
Nothing's ever as bad as it seems.
You might think the whole world's watching you, judging you,
but then you take that step and then you realise that it wasn't,
it wasn't how it was, so I think people are starting to realise
that you can be yourself and not be a bad rugby player.
You can succeed and still have more to you.
And I think everybody's warming up to that idea.
The issue with rugby is there's a lack of demand
and we have to ask ourselves why is there a lack of demand?
It doesn't come from the product, the product is good.
I feel like the lack of demand
comes from people not knowing about the sport.
Or people from similar communities to myself not knowing about the sport.
[Ellis] Rugby's always been a sort of, like, a posh sport
and it's only been professional for 20-odd years or so,
so it's not really developed that much in, in that time period.
Obviously, the money's got bigger, seems the market's got bigger and that,
but the actual brand of people that play it has always been very, very similar.
I think rugby traditionally has been an elitist sport.
If you look at the '90s, it's a sport that mainly public schools played.
To get into to these public schools
you have to have a little bit of money in your pocket
and that then puts a barrier to a number of different communities,
different people from different walks of life,
so it's not all-encompassing with that.
Just the way we're pictured in general by the public.
I think it's very so much still that chino wearing,
shirt and tie wanker, sort of set-up, like.
Well, that's what... It's definitely like that in Bristol anyway.
I just played for England. I come back off the tour or whatever,
and people were like, "So what do you do for a job then?"
I'm like, "I play rugby." "Yeah, yeah, but what do you do during the week?"
"No, no, no, I play rugby." "Yeah, you train on the evenings.
Fucking seven till nine, but what do you do in the...?" "No, no, no."
That's what you do. Like, it's actually your fucking job!
And I think as time has gone on it has become better,
but I think we're still at a period now that the best private schools
often have the best rugby teams and a lot of those players
have gone on further to become professional rugby players
and England players and so on and so forth.
So I do think there is something in it about, like, breaking down barriers
and making rugby increasingly more...
more open to more communities.
As I said, I do think we're moving in a positive direction,
but I think more can be done to, you know,
to make rugby more encompassing for...
Well, from my friends point of view,
they always say to me, "Rugby's a bit of a posh sport, innit, Els? A posh sport?"
And I'm like, "Yeah, I mean it is, but there's, like, there's...
Posh people are cool, man." Like, some of my best mates are proper posh
and well off, like, it don't make you a bad person.
[Beno] When I was 16, I was fortunate enough to get a scholarship
and a bursary to a private school to play rugby at Dulwich College.
People talk about private schools negatively but for me, personally,
going to Dulwich was like one of the best things that could have happened to me,
not only in a rugby sense but, like, the people I met while I was at Dulwich.
I remember, like, I'd go back into the barbershop
and everyone in the barbershop was happy. The barbershop, my guy Buddy,
would shout and be like, "Him go there!"
In his accent and that, and be shouting about the school I went to and that.
So everyone was just so happy for me where I came from, like,
even my friends, like everyone from the area was just so happy that
I could go to that school, so...
I don't know, like, there are... there are negatives around the private school,
but I only had a positive experience and I'm not trying to say, "Stop it,"
or only... I'm trying to say don't let rugby only be played at private schools.
Let it be played everywhere else as well.
When I first arrived here, it was sort of like, um...
Actually, on my first day, do you remember? Did you help me out?
-Yes! -[they all laugh]
-Bro. -Me, you and Mira.
Yeah, bro, people were helping me out. I was like, "Ah, this is nice."
That was the level before you came here.
I was like, "The people are nice here, you know!" I was like, "OK!"
Even from, like, years before, like, Year Eight times,
we were hearing about you.
-There was madness here one time. -What did you do? Was it a game?
-Yeah. -Yeah, I remember that.
After that, people were talking like there was this...
an animal that was just running through people.
-[laughter] -An animal!
So you were real player player from young?
-We're just trying to get it how we lived. -[laughter]
-How we lived? -Oh!
[Beno] So what memories did you men have?
I remember initially it being a culture shock.
That's one thing that sticks out in my mind.
Exactly, me and T joined at 11 years old, so you can imagine coming from
Peckham, Camberwell straight into Dulwich College was mad.
It was a big culture shock, a very big culture shock.
You get a little bit of imposter syndrome because...
-Most definitely. -You know, you look around you,
and you don't really relate to all the history
and all the, you know, middle-class... wealth.
Cos you're not used to seeing yourself in certain kind of environments.
Exactly.
[Beno] I sit there with entitled people and I have this conversation,
and they're like, "Oh, but..." like,
"Could you, could people from, like, your area not go and just...
just do well at school and then get good jobs and work really hard
and then have a good job, do you know what I mean?
And then have children?" It doesn't work like that like.
-They don't understand the reality. -Exactly, like...
They don't understand when they're born in... when you're born in, like, Barnes,
and your parents went to private school and then you go to a private school,
you're just following the status quo, big man, you're not doing anything special.
Um... You're not changing things.
There's a certain amount of information they're used to receiving.
-Exactly. -Most definitely.
The difficulty level and friction that you're coming across is so much lower.
Exactly, like, yeah.
You're doing something that other people haven't done before.
And to do that, people don't understand that,
like they can't fathom it because they're in their bubble of privilege
and lack of understanding, really.
Being honest, it took me a while to fully understand or to fully see that
there was a problem in rugby in terms of people of colour,
or the class issue,
and it took me to getting to know
guys like Beno and Genge
and Sinck's problems and things that they faced that I hadn't faced
because I went to a private school
and, you know, was pretty lucky in terms of the way I grew up.
Speaking to them, you know, it kind of opened my eyes up
and made me realise that, you know, some things you kind of
do have to take a stand on because it's bigger than just you.
That is important, not just for you but for people coming through
and for the next generation of rugby players to make sure that,
you know, some of things that - not that we went through,
because I don't want to make it sound like it was
a serious battle or anything because it wasn't,
but for them to not feel constricted
and so that they can just... the sport can be more open generally.
Rugby has a privileged history and therefore
it's happened to just stay within the communities of privileged people
and doesn't really come into communities like mine.
But, fortunately, I was happy - I just went to a school that played rugby,
so I was able to benefit from the sport
and continue to benefit from the sport,
but I just feel more people should have that chance, essentially.
It is getting better slowly.
It's by no means perfect and it's by no means where it should be
in this day and age, especially when you look at other sports and stuff like that,
but it is improving.
If you look at the 2003 England Rugby team,
there was one person of colour within that team, which was
Jason Robertson, and a fantastic player he was.
If you look at the 2020 England Rugby team,
or 2019 England Rugby team, there's, I don't know,
probably about the third of the team
who probably don't fit the description of Anglo-Saxon or Caucasian.
And I think it's coming to a stage where
rugby is becoming a bit more representative of the society
in which England is now today.
I feel rugby, as in its essence,
rugby in its simplest form, is everybody's game.
The way rugby is portrayed
means that it's not everybody's game, if that makes sense.
I still feel like people can get pushed out
of the sport for acting in ways that...
are not consistent with the... the rugby...
Not necessarily the rugby mould, but also the rugby values and stuff, you know.
People get pushed out very easily and once you've got a reputation in the sport,
I feel like it follows you everywhere.
You know, once you set you stall out, it kind of sticks with you for a long time.
It's a tough one because you've got to encourage players to be themselves
but again you've got to, you've got to make sure that they're aware of
the repercussions of... of doing things that are not consistent with rugby values,
or, you know, the culture behind rugby so, you know, it's not an easy answer,
but I do think there's a lot of players who've been pushed away from the game
that could have been, could have been excellent in the sport,
or guys who are still in the sport but could have been even better,
but the reputation that's preceded them from not following rugby norms
has led to their downfall, type thing.
I think rugby is a game which can be for all,
in terms of how rugby tries to get across to certain communities.
I think it can do a much better job.
I think we're only scratching the surface in terms of talent,
in terms of the communities that rugby can really like get into
and make a bigger impact.
I think if rugby does that, then in the long run it'll benefit the whole game
as they'll be better players, more diverse players,
players from a whole range of different backgrounds
and be more representative of the Britain in which we live in today.
If there's like a more diverse group of people playing rugby union, like,
I just struggle to see where the loser is, like.
I just can't see who, who fails in this situation,
I feel it's just beneficial for the game and beneficial for the people that play.
So I just struggle to see the loser, bro.
Everybody is definitely capable of playing rugby,
but whether people know they like rugby or not
is based on whether they've been exposed to it.
Community outreach programmes, like, just getting into communities,
even where it might feel, where it might feel uncomfortable,
where it might feel that rugby's not wanted, it's just...
They don't have it, so it's alien to them
so I feel like into those schools, into state schools in the boroughs.
You tap into a group of players that you know potentially
hadn't seen rugby as an avenue.
By players being themselves and, you know, being open, I guess,
to the public, you know, it kind of gives kids from where they're from,
who potentially might have had less opportunity,
someone to look up to and think, "Oh, I can do that as well."
[Biyi] Whether there's just one little boy sitting in a flat in North London saying,
"I want to be a rugby player. No one looks like me. I could look like that guy."
So whether it's one, two, 10,000,
we are role-models and, whether we believe it or know it or not,
there are people looking up to us, there are people saying,
"Oh, that rugby guy, that guy that plays rugby, that's kind of like me."
I see it in my posts.
People tag their cousins or little... just young black boys playing rugby
and they say, "Oh, you play like that guy, you play like that guy!"
And it's refreshing to see and I just want to encourage that.
Yeah, I mean, look, if I can open up the doors for other people to come in
and make a career for themselves and if they actually know it's a career
by the time I've finished playing, I think I'll be happy.
But there's still so much more to do and I think the more we sort of
suppress people's personality in rugby and let people
carry on the way they're going with just being robots,
and that real bland sort of way they get interviewed,
and the way they get like sort of sold to the media.
I think it's just not portrayed in the right way for working-class people
to come in and be a part of it.
[Biyi] There's already situations and examples of
taking rugby down to grass-root levels
and how people with issues and with anger issues or family struggles,
they've found solace in rugby and they've been able to find an output,
a nice confrontational output that doesn't get them in jail,
that doesn't get them hurt on the streets, that doesn't affect their family,
and it's all purely positive and you're growing as a person,
and as a player and you're getting fitter and healthier,
and you're smiling more through rugby.
Rugby can be that vehicle to change a lot of people's lives, I think,
and just not enough people are exposed to it.
I'm not even thinking just in this country, bro.
Like, rugby has the potential to be huge.
The potential is...
As in, we can't even fathom it because we're not there yet.
This country could be the catalyst for it because I think in other countries,
it also has a privileged history in which only privileged people play rugby union.
I think there are plenty more people who may even be more athletic than me,
more gifted than me, who just aren't exposed to the sport
and I think if there was more exposure,
I think the results would go through the roof.
And if you tap into that and other people just play rugby union,
it doesn't pertain to your background, to what sport you play,
then we're laughing, bro, we're laughing.
Like, we can't really know what it's capable of, innit?
I think it will blow everyone's mind the amount of kids who are driven,
who want to drive themselves to a sport, who want to change their lives round,
who want to change their family's lives, or even if they want to make good friends
and be good people. It could be a great avenue, it could be a great sport.
I think literally the whole country could love it.
Players continuing to be open and trying to be themselves
wherever possible will help.
Guys like Genge and Beno and Sinck have set out
a good start in my opinion to...
to encouraging people of different backgrounds
to being themselves and to being good role models for that.
The more success I've had in the sport, like, it's sort of...
it's sort of helped raised awareness.
I don't want to sound like a fucking cult hero but...
it's sort of helped raise awareness in my area of rugby, in general.
Like my friends started following it and they come to games and that.
They stand out like a sore thumb in the box at Twickenham,
but it's been good for the area, definitely.
Hopefully, more to come.
I mean, being honest, first and foremost,
you know, I want to be remembered as someone who won things,
but I understand and appreciate the...
the importance of being more than just a rugby player.
I'd like to be seen as a player who, who gave,
who gave everything he could to the sport obviously
and was himself alongside it. I want to be seen as a good person.
What would I want to be remembered for? I don't know. Um...
I guess I know when I hang up the boots.
Uh...
I just want people to...
I guess in a... in a time in rugby where people aren't always themselves,
I guess I just want people to be like, "Fucking hell, yeah!
That was Ellis Genge. He was always himself.
That was the most raw, organic version of him."
And if people think that, then I'll be happy,
irrespective of what I achieve in my career.
I just want to be remembered as like a man of his word.
On that note, I said I'd be a sick rugby player,
so we've kind of got to end the interview here, innit?
So we got to get back to work now.
But, yeah, I just want to be remembered as a man of my word.
Hopefully, by the time - in ten years, 35, when I'm tired,
when I call it a day - I'll be happy then, innit?
If in 15, 20 years I'm looking back
and I see the next crop of, like, professional rugby players
or just people in general,
and, you know, they say that I've had an impact on their life,
to live a certain way or be better, I think,
that's job done as far as I'm concerned.
One, two, three.
[laughter]
This is like one of the biggest lines that I say.
I was like, bro, if every man knew how much money we can make from rugby,
I think everyone would have taken it that bit more seriously
when we played it, do you know what I mean?
Like, you'd have gone to those academy days...
Do you know what I mean? You would have taken it that bit more seriously
if you knew that big man like Bens would have his own house right now.
-[laughter] -Is that for real?
Innit? That's what I mean, innit? That's just the facts, like.
There's a number of characters from our own childhood
that we know played rugby that are in compromised positions right now,
-that didn't have to be if they knew. -And they were cold.
-And they were really good. -They were cold.
They'd have just taken it more seriously if they knew, bruv.
And some people might not know but when everyone's doing something,
you just follow, like, do you know what I mean?
If everyone's just doing it, you'll just naturally follow
and continue doing it and then, "Oh, look, innit? I'm playing rugby"!
That's basically what happened to me, like, it sort of like...
I wasn't trying to play rugby, I wasn't trying to be a rugby player.
And then all of a sudden it's like, "Oh, here's a contract!"
And I'm like, "Oh, there's money!"
Like, to play rugby that I was doing for free. "Oh, safe, innit? " Like...
"I could do this," you know what I mean? "Oh, there's more?"
I remember that moment.
Us having that conversation and you were like,
you felt so grateful and lucky to get paid to play this game.
Yeah, bro!
-You couldn't believe it. I was there... -Honestly, bruv!
Honestly, I'm getting paid to do what people were paying to do,
do you know what I mean, like?
I'm getting paid to do what people are paying to do.
-Now for real. -You know what I mean. Like?
And I was like, boy, how many more people could come and do this, bro?
Like, come on, let's bring the whole ends through, bro!
Let's bring... Everyone, come! Come join us, man.
Oh!
Uh, my name's Beno Obano. I'm a superstar director, producer.
No, man, man, man! It's no good. It's no good. Sorry!
I'm just not going to do it!
[music: "Shomo" by DRB Lasgidi Feat. Olamide]
No, no, no, I'm not, no.
I'll do it. Just gonna stare at him.
Probably yes is the answer.
I've just... I've just completely gone in a circle! Oh, my God!
[camera beeps]
Takes me ages, bro, I'm telling you.
Ah!
-Imagine. -[camera beeps]
Ah, no way!
[camera beeps]
No, honestly, that's noise pollution, bro, like.
People have to live, you know.
Which low point have I had in my career?
I don't know if I've got the answers to... Oh, fuck, what was the question?
Sorry.
Cos that's the same thing for you!
We good to go?
That's a wrap, B.