Hey, Bob. What's up?
Hi. Listen.
According to an unconfirmed report, David Wallace is dead.
What?
No,no,no.
No, it must be some sort of college prank or something.
Well... wens)
I thought if anyone knew whether it was true or not, it would be you.
Now, a remembrance of writer David Foster Wallace.
He was found dead, an apparent suicide, on Friday night.
Wallace's novel, Infinite Jest, brought him fame and a wide audience.
Writer David Lipsky has this appreciation.
"To read David Foster Wallace was to feel your eyelids pulled open.
"Some writers specialize in the away-from-home experience.
"They've safaried, eaten across Italy, covered a war.
"Wallace offered his alive self, cutting through our sleepy aquarium,
"our standard TV, stores, political campaigns.
"Writers who can do this, like Salinger and Fitzgerald,
"forge an unbreakable bond with readers.
"You didn't slip into the books looking for a story, information,
"but for a particular experience.
"The sensation, for a certain number of pages,
"of being David Foster Wallace."
If anything, there was a conscious attempt to not give overt direction.
Although, of course, you end up becoming yourself.
And did they want you to be a writer or no?
No, no, I was gonna be... The big thing when I was little,
- I was a really serious jock, you know.
Yeah, I played city-wide football as a kid.
I was really big and really strong as a kid.
And then, for four or five years, I was gonna be a pro tennis player.
- It was my great dream. - Right.
Reading was just this fun, weird thing that I did on the side.
"I didn't understand Soho,
"the warehouses, the old buildings, the cobbled streets.
"It wasn't the Upper East Side, and it was dirty.
"I felt marooned.
"Our mother had taken us off the track of the nice life we'd been on.
"She'd moored us in a creepy cul-de-sac with her art world friends.
"None of the kids in my school had parents in the art world.
"It made me feel different, like there was something I had to cover up."
David, hi. How'd your reading go?
- It was great. -I'm sorry I missed it.
Don't worry about it.
Hey, I heard you got that Rolling Stone job.
We'll see. I'm sort of on probation.
Good luck.
Did you see Kim's review in New York Magazine?
The guy has been fucking canonized.
Sorry, who's this?
David Foster Wallace.
"Next year's book awards have been decided..."
Can you believe this?
"The plaques and citations can now be put into escrow."
It's unbelievable.
"With Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace, a plutonium-dense, satirical quiz-kid opus
"that runs to almost 1,000..." What? ,000 pages,
"not including footnotes, the competition has been obliterated.
"It's as though Paul Bunyan had joined the NFL,
"or Wittgenstein had gone onto Jeopardy!
"The novel is that colossally disruptive, and that spectacularly good."
That's the fucking opening paragraph.
What if it actually is that good?
You might just have to read it.
Shit.
- Hey. -Thanks a lot.
How many times have we interviewed a writer in the last 10 years?
Take a guess.
Uh, how many?
Zero. I checked.
Maybe because Rolling Stone doesn't interview writers.
There hasn't been a writer like this, okay?
Once in a generation. Maybe Hemingway, Pynchon.
Let me have this story.
What story?
He's finishing up a book tour and, um, I wanna go with him.
Well, that's not a story.
He teaches at some small state university somewhere in Illinois.
Please, Bob, send me there, okay?
This is the sort of stuff I should be doing, not 500 words on boy bands.
"Yak to Jam'?
There better be a story there.
There will be.
There better.
David, hi. It's, uh... It's David Lipsky.
Where are you?
You know, I think I may have made a wrong turn somewhere.
Uh, let's see, I'm on County Highway 29, just across from the Circus Video.
How did you get this number?
Uh, your publicist sent it in her e-mail, just in case.
Hey, you'd do me a favor by losing it.
Ow!
Stay. Be calm.
Be calm. Stay.
- Hey, you made it. -Hi. Yeah.
- Yeah. Dave. -Yeah.
- Dave Wallace. -David Lipsky.
Hi. It's a pleasure, so...
Likewise.
Um... Yeah, I'm sorry about the, uh, phone call. I just...
- Yeah. No, you're fine. -Okay.
It was 95% joke.
Right, right. Yeah.
Sorry in advance about the dogs. They're gonna be slobbering all over you.
No, I don't mind at all. I love dogs.
- Oh, yeah? -Yeah.
You haven't met these guys yet.
I love 'em. Love 'em.
Let's, uh... Jesus! Let's get inside. It's cold.
Boys, get in there.
Thanks a lot. Ooh.
Come on. Come on, buddy.
Wait. Ooh, I'm very glad to meet you, too.
Hmm, who is that?
- Oh, that's Jeeves. -Hi.
Yeah, that's the Jeevmeister.
I got him 'cause he was so ugly, nobody else wanted him.
Now, clearly, he's like a CoverGirl dog.
And that's Drone, that's my provisional dog.
Why? Why provisional?
Uh, he just showed up one day while Jeeves and I were out jogging.
The rest is history.
I feel like I should offer you tea or something.
- Yeah. -Yeah?
Yeah, thanks, that'd be great.
- Okay. -Yeah.
It's a nice view.
Thank you. I can't take credit for it.
Huh.
So, um, have you always been, uh, unlisted?
I had to do that recently. it was getting kind of crazy.
Yeah, because of, uh... Because of fans?
I don't know if "fan" is exactly the right word.
I think what happened was,
I had forgotten to tell my parents not to give my number out.
So, those people would track my parents down.
I have this terrible problem, I really hate to hurt people's feelings, so...
Mmm. Right.
I did something kind of cowardly.
No, I don't think unlisting your number is cowardly.
It kind of is. I mean, I changed my number so these folks couldn't find me anymore.
All right.
There's this computer operator from Vancouver,
he was living in a basement or something.
I found him very moving.
He was in terrible, terrible pain.
What did he want from you?
It's unclear.
And when I would sort of, like, ask him,
that's when he would get angry, and it got scary.
Right. What is this? Who is the artist?
It's my friend's daughter, calls me chicken-head.
I call her chicken-head.
It's her latest salvo in the war.
Um...
That's funny. Would you mind if I, uh...
- No, do what you gotta do. -Thank you.
Listen, before we start putting stuff on tape, I... I need to ask you something.
I need to know that anything that I say five minutes later not to put in,
that you're not gonna put in.
Absolutely.
Just given my level of fatigue and my fuck-up quotient lately,
it's the only way I can see doing it and not going crazy.
Nope, I... I completely understand.
- So, right back on, huh? -Mmm.
Uh... You agreed to the interview.
Uh... So, this is your road, huh?
- Yeah, this is my road. - For sure.
You just have to tell me where to turn because I'm used to the grid system.
- This is all new territory for me. -Oh.
Yeah, I know, fair enough.
- You just go straight for about a mile. -Okay.
- There'll be signs of the school on the right. -Got it.
And, uh, do you like... Do you like teaching there?
I do, yeah, very much, which is what's so fucked.
I feel so bad for these kids.
Why? Why do you feel bad for them?
They have the greatest writing teacher in the world.
If I was there, maybe.
No, I mean, the whole fuss has taken me out of school for the past two weeks,
-and we gotta leave again tomorrow. -Right. Right.
We gotta be up at the crack at dawn to go to the airport tomorrow.
Shit. Do we really?
- That's what you signed on for, man. -All right. No problem.
You're welcome to stick around and write an article about my dogs.
No, no, no. That's just fine.
It might be more interesting, I promise you.
Do yourself a favor, don't expect any fireworks in there.
I'm sure you're gonna be just fine.
Campus romance story.
Ah!
I gotta tell you guys,
the average citizen is not gonna find it that interesting.
I mean, the great dread of creative writing professors,
"Their eyes met over the keg."
I just want my narrator to be funny and smart, you know.
I know. I know, I get it.
You want your narrator to be funny and smart.
Here's a tip.
Have them say funny, smart things some of the time.
Thank you.
- You did a good job. -Thank you.
All right, who's next? Melissa.
I'm normally a much better teacher than that, I swear.
Well, I thought you were great, and that they obviously love you.
Oh, you think?
Yeah, come on, you know they do.
You hungry?
And what can I get you to drink?
- Uh... - Um...
I'll just have a giant Diet Rite, please.
Uh, okay, you know what, I'll just... I'll have the same thing.
Be right back with your pop.
- Thanks. -Thanks, man.
Oh. Uh...
Can I, um...
Do you mind if l...
One second. Okay.
Uh...
You don't drink.
Is that a question to me?
No, no, it's an observation.
Ah, l see. No, I know.
Uh, no, I do not drink.
You can order whatever you want, though. Go right ahead.
Oh, no, no, no. That's fine.
No, I mean, I have a lot of friends who have been through the program, so...
They always tell me that they're, uh... They're uncomfortable
with people drinking right in front of them.
- So, I just... -Oh.
I mean, out of respect, I'm...
I got what you got.
I'm not any sort of authority on any sort of program.
From my very limited outside understanding,
for people who've been in it a while,
you could snort cocaine off the back of your hand, they'd be all right, so...
Right, right. Right.
- You know what I would love to do, man? -What's that?
I would love to do a profile on one of you guys who's doing a profile on me.
- Mmm, that is interesting. -Is that too po-mo and cute? I don't know.
Maybe for Rolling Stone, but...
-it'll be interesting though. Oh. -You think?
- I'm sorry, man. -What's wrong?
It's just, you're gonna go back to New York
and sit at your desk and shape this thing however you want.
That... I mean, to me, it's just extremely disturbing.
Why is it disturbing?
'Cause I think I would like to shape the impression of me that's coming across.
- I see. I understand. -Yeah.
I don't even know if I like you yet.
I'm so nervous about whether you like me.
Here you go.
Your food will be out soon. Can I get you anything else?
- No, no, no, we're fine. Thank you. - Thanks.
Um...
- What's this story about in your mind? -I think...
What does... What does Jann want?
Uh, just what it's like to be the most talked-about writer in the country,
or that... That sort of thing.
- Right. -Which makes it sound... That's not...
How do you learn to do this stuff?
- Do what? -The interviewing.
Does one go to interviewing school?
Yes, I went to eight years of interviewing school.
- So, you got a master's? -I did. Um...
No, no, I'm... Uh...
I'm a writer.
- Ah, okay. Great. -Yeah.
No, I mean, I write fiction as well. I...
I just had a novel published, actually.
- Great. -Mmm.
What's... What's that called?
The Art Fair.
The Art Fair? Great.
And I had a collection published a few years ago, so...
You're, like, a nervous guy, huh?
No, no, no. No, I'm okay. How are you?
Ah, 'cause I'm terrified.
- Are you? -Yes, you're not alone in this.
- Okay. -We'll do this together.
- No, no, no. I think it's gonna be a lot of fun. -Yeah.
The thing about the tours, like, yes,
I would like to get laid off of it a couple times.
- Yeah? -People come up,
they kind of slither up, and it seems like, I don't know...
What I want is not to have to take any action.
What kind of action?
I don't wanna have to say, like, "Do you want to come back to the hotel?"
I want them to say, "I am coming back to your hotel."
You know, "Where is your hotel?"
Mmm, that would be easier for you, wouldn't it? Yeah.
I can't stand to look like I'm actively trading off this sexually,
which, of course, I'd be happy to do,
but I think, in retrospect, I'm probably very lucky that I didn't.
Mmm, lucky, why?
It just would've made me feel lonely, you know.
Lonely? How so?
Well, it wouldn't have had anything to do with me.
I think it would've been just...
Your fame?
Yeah, whatever. Yes.
- Your fame. You can say it. -Fine, fine.
- What? You're famous. Hmm. -Okay. Fine, whatever.
You are. No, except though,
if, uh, they're responding to your work and your work is really personal,
then reading you is another way of meeting you, isn't that right?
- That's so good. -Thank you.
This piece will be excellent, I think, if it's mostly you.
- Just talk all you want... -Come on.
Save me a whole lot of trouble.
So, this is what a real car feels like.
I mean, the one I got, it's like riding around on a power lawn mower, you know.
Do you think being handsome has anything to do with your success?
- What? -No, no, you're photogenic.
I mean, you look good in your author's photo.
Come on. Ugh.
Look, you have to come put me down if I even start thinking that way.
Thinking what way? What, about how books are sold?
Like, "Do you wanna do a Rolling Stone interview?
"Do you wanna do X? Do you wanna do Y?"
It really worries me that what I'm doing right now is like being a whore.
A whore? Hey, why?
Cashing in somehow, or like, getting some little celebrity for myself
that will, from some bizarre set of misunderstandings,
sell more copies of the book.
Mmm, okay.
You can quote that if you want.
Preferably in a context where I don't sound like a total dweeb.
Don't worry about it. Yeah.
By the way, are they gonna send Annie Leibovitz to take pictures?
Uh, I'm not sure. Possibly.
We'll see how the story turns out.
I know. You're a really good-looking guy.
We should have 'em photograph you, say you're me,
maybe I'll finally end up getting laid.
Are you gonna drink all that?
- I don't wanna have to come back. -Yeah.
I wish they had a case.
That's actually a really good idea. Um...
Uh...
Get the marshmallow one, too, please.
All right.
- One? -Two.
Two, of course. Why would I get one?
One second. Okay.
Okay, all right, I think that's enough. Come on.
- Okay. Hey, Kim. -Hi.
Uh, we'll take all of these.
Please, let me.
Oh, no, you don't have to pay for my shit.
No, no. It's not coming out of my pocket, I have an expense account.
If you insist, yeah.
Mmm.
- If we ate like this all the time... -Yeah.
What would be wrong with that?
What would be wrong? Like, besides your teeth falling out and getting really fat?
It's got none of the nourishment of real food...
- No. -...but it is real pleasurable,
masticating and swallowing this stuff.
Yes, it is. It's like seductive commercial entertainment.
Mmm. But what saves us is that most entertainment is not very good.
Yeah, but what about good seductive commercial entertainment, like, uh, Die Hard?
- That first Die Hard? - The first Die Hard.
- Great film. -No, it's a brilliant film.
- The best. -Absolutely.
So good.
- I think if the book is about anything... -Yeah.
-...it's about the question of why. -Right.
Why am I watching all this shit?
- Right. Right, yeah. -it's not about the shit.
- It's about me. -Okay.
So, why am I doing it?
And what's so American about what I'm doing?
You know, the minute I start talking about this stuff,
it sounds, number one, very vague, and number two, really reductive.
No, no, no. I don't think you're being vague or reductive at all.
Okay, because I don't have a diagnosis or a system of prescription as to why we...
When I say "we," I mean people just like you and me.
Mostly white, upper-middle class, obscenely well-educated,
doing really interesting jobs, sitting in really expensive chairs...
Yeah.
...watching the best, most sophisticated electronic equipment money can buy.
Why do we feel so empty and unhappy?
Right. No. It's kind of like Hamlet, except with channel surfing.
I'm not saying that watching TV is bad or a waste of your time
any more than masturbation is bad or a waste of your time.
It's a pleasurable way to spend a few minutes,
-but if you're doing it 20 times a day... -Right.
If your primary sexual relationship is with your own hands, something is wrong.
Yeah, except, at least with masturbation,
some action is being performed though, right?
Isn't that... That's better.
Okay, you can make me look like a real dick if you print this.
No, I'm not going to, but if you can, speak into the mic.
Yes, you're performing muscular movements with your hand as you're jerking off,
but what you're really doing, I think, is you're running a movie in your head.
You're having a fantasy relationship with somebody who is not real,
strictly to stimulate a neurological response.
So look, as the Internet grows in the next 10, 15 years
and virtual reality pornography becomes a reality...
Hmm.
...we're gonna have to develop some real machinery inside our guts
to turn off pure, unalloyed pleasure.
Or, I don't know about you, I'm gonna have to leave the planet.
Why?
'Cause the technology is just gonna get better and better,
and it's gonna get easier and easier, and more and more convenient,
and more and more pleasurable to sit alone.
With images on a screen
given to us by people who do not love us, but want our money.
And that's fine in low doses.
But if it's the basic main staple of your diet, you're gonna die.
Well, come on.
In a very meaningful way, you're going to die.
Hey, can I try that, actually?
Yeah, it takes some getting used to. Go ahead.
Thanks.
- It goes right there. - Yeah, I know.
Mmm.
Hmm.
That's, um...
Mmm. Actually, can I use your bathroom for a second?
- I believe it's unoccupied. -Right.
Hmm.
-Hey. -Hey.
So, uh, do you not have a television?
I do not have a TV, no.
How come?
Because if I had a TV, I would watch it all the time.
Ah.
I don't even know if I'd watch it all the time, but it would be on all the time.
- Right. -Like my version of a fireplace.
Some sort of source of warmth and light in the corner
I'd occasionally get sucked into.
Right. What, did you watch a lot of TV when you were a kid?
- Yeah, a lot. -Yeah.
You'?
I, uh... Me?
Um, yeah, no, I did. I did. Uh...
I tell you, but I moved in with a woman, and she, uh, grew up without a television.
So, I tell you, living with her for the first month was like torture.
But then I realized it was probably the best thing for me.
Did you guys stay together?
It's complicated.
- Why? -Hmm. Uh...
Well, I was seeing this woman, and she moved to LA.
So, we... We theoretically broke up.
Then I started seeing this other woman.
But then, I started seeing the first woman again.
We tried the bicoastal thing, and the, uh...
Let's just say the second woman didn't take to that very well.
It's so much easier having dogs.
I'm sure it is.
I mean, yes, you don't get laid,
but you don't have that feeling, like you're hurting their feelings all the time.
Right, right, right.
I would like to emphasize, strictly platonic relationship with the dogs.
I'll make sure to highlight that in the article, sure.
Uh, so, you're not dating anybody then?
Yeah. Seriously dating, no.
I'm out of practice, I wouldn't even know what to say.
Wouldn't, um...
Do you wanna have kids?
I mean, I think someday I would, yeah. You?
Yeah. I...
Yeah, I think eventually, yeah.
I think that writing books is a little bit like raising children, you know.
You have to be careful, though.
It's okay to take pride in the work,
but I think it's bad to want the glory to reflect back on you.
I mean, it sounds like you're worried about having children.
I don't know that I wanna say anything more about that, if that's okay.
- That's fine. -You know, it's fine for us
to joke about getting laid on tour and stuff,
but that's... That's about it.
No, I just thought
it'd be nice to have someone to be sharing all this wonderful stuff with.
- That's it. -Yeah.
I'd really wished that I was married the past couple weeks.
You have?
Yeah, nobody else really gets it, you know?
Your friends who aren't in the writing biz are just...
They're awed by your picture in Time.
Your agent and editor are good people, but they have their own agendas.
It's fun talking to you about it,
-but, yeah, you've got your own agenda, too. -That's true.
Certainly a set of interests that diverge from mine.
That's true.
So, yeah, it would be kind of nice to have somebody
that you just shared a life with and allowed yourself to be happy...
- Yeah. -...and confused with.
Right, somebody to call when you get back to the hotel.
So, I got a question. Why aren't you married at 30?
Why aren't you married at 34?
- You first. -Okay.
Uh...
I don't know, I mean, I just think it's kind of hard to cast that role, you know,
to fill it when you know it's gonna be for, like, 30 to 40 years.
You know, to find someone who, whatever mental landscape you're in,
that they're gonna be in it, too,
and you have to find someone who'll fit any landscape you can imagine.
I don't know.
Yeah, I can't put it as well as you can, you know, about these mental landscapes.
I just... I know that I am hard to be around.
- No, I don't think so. -I am. Yeah.
No. Why do you say that?
When I wanna be alone, like, to write, I really do wanna be alone.
And I think...
I think if you dedicate yourself, like, to anything,
one facet of that is that it makes you very, very self-conscious.
Right.
And you end up using people.
Wanting them around when you want them around,
and then sending them away.
Well, yeah, but that comes with the territory.
I mean, if you're gonna be a writer, that kind of self-consciousness...
- There's good self-consciousness. -Right.
Then there's also, like, a toxic, paralyzing,
rape-by-psychic-Bedouins kind of self-consciousness.
Right, right.
- That is scary, yeah. -Yeah.
- That sounds worse. Can you do me a favor? -Yes.
Could you tell me about that poster over there?
- Alanis? -Yeah.
I don't know, I guess I am susceptible like everybody else. Why?
- I mean, she's pretty, all right... -She is pretty.
...but it is the only thing in there.
She's pretty in a very sloppy, very human way.
You know, she's got this, like, squeaky, orgasmic quality to her voice.
Right, right. Yeah.
- Here's what it is. -What?
A lot of women in magazines are pretty in a way that is not erotic,
because they don't look like anybody that you know.
- That's true. Right. -Yeah.
Like, you can't imagine them putting a quarter in a parking meter
or, like, eating a bologna sandwich.
Whereas Alanis Morissette,
I can and have imagined her just, like, chowing down on a bologna sandwich.
- I find her absolutely riveting. -That's really nice.
How'd you get into her? How did you get into her music? I mean...
I was listening to this cheesy Bloomington radio,
and I Wanna Tell You came on.
Right, oh, You Oughta Know, but right.
- I don't know what that means. -No, no. Um...
I Want To Tell You is a book that O.J. Simpson wrote.
- Ah, that's a different thing. - Yeah.
Although, wouldn't it be funny if O.J. Simpson sang You Oughta Know
and Alanis Morissette wrote a book about not killing two people.
Oh, man.
I tell you, if this whole fuss, whatever,
could get me a five-minute cup of tea with her...
Yo, why don't you put out your feelers and see if she'd be willing to meet you?
Are you serious? I would never do that.
Why not?
I would be terrified. Why? Would you do that?
Um, if I were you, yeah, I would do that.
A day with Alanis Morissette. What would I say?
Like, "Hello, Miss Morissette. What is it like to be you?"
"Um, I don't know. Shut up and get the fuck away from me."
That's that beautiful squeaky voice you like.
- That's right. And orgasmic. -Yeah, yeah.
But, you know, you would go if she called you.
"Hey, Dave, I'm at the Drake in Chicago. Let's have that tea."
Okay, this is gonna look ridiculous.
All right? It's gonna look like I'm using Rolling Stone as a vehicle to, like...
-it's been used for worse. -Yes, I would do it.
- Okay? I would do it in a heartbeat. -Yeah. Good.
- Just, like, perspiring heavily the whole way. -Right.
The whole time shoving Certs into my mouth...
Exactly.
...freaking out, it would cause me a week of absolute trauma,
and, yes, I would do it in a heartbeat.
- Okay, are you happy? -Yeah. We got that?
- It's on the record. -Okay. Um...
I like... Yeah.
I like talking to you about this stuff.
Uh, but we should... You know, we gotta be up early.
Really? What time is it? It is, like, 10:00.
Think it's, like, 11:30, dick-brain.
Oh, shit, jeez.
I am so sorry.
I totally lost track of time.
Um, what time do you want me to pick you up tomorrow?
Where are you going?
Uh, there's a motel down the road. I think it's a Days Inn.
Oh. No, you don't wanna stay there.
Trust me.
I've got a guest room-ish place you could stay in. Come on.
No, no, I don't want to impose.
- Oh, don't thank me yet. It's not much. - Okay.
Oh, no. No, it's great. Thank you.
You should probably clean some of that shit off the bed...
- Right. -For maximum comfort.
- Thanks. - Definitely wanna change that sheet.
- No, it's fine, thank you. -Yeah.
- This is... -Throw this, throw it away.
Okay, here you go.
- Grab one side of this. -All right, thanks.
And, uh, you wanna change the pillows, or we just keep 'em?
Don't think you're gonna catch anything incurable.
- That's all right. -Got Penicillin.
- Hey, you're good? -Yeah.
All right. Um, do me a favor. Leave the door open for the dogs.
They like to wander from room to room at night.
If the door is closed, they, like, eat it to get through it if they have to.
- Are you serious? -Yeah.
- Um, okay, yeah. - Um...
Okay, good night.
- Good night. Thanks. Yeah. -Cool.
Oh.
Hey.
Hey, buddy. Hey, okay.
How are ya?
Okay. Hey. Oh. All right.
Come on.
Okay.
All right. Thanks. Okay.
Hey, okay.
Have a good night.
Okay.
Oh.
Hey,
You want a Nescoffee?
No, I don't need caffeine to wake up.
Oh, but, uh, cigarettes?
- Brothers of the lung. -Mmm.
Do you wanna split this with me? It's my last one.
Uh...
No, thanks.
Just... Here.
Take a bit.
Mi Pop-Tart es su Pop-Tart.
- Thanks. -Try it.
It's delicious, right?
It's really good.
- There's the Mitsubishi plant. - Mmm.
Then there's, like, a lot of farm support, there's Rotag, Anderson's Seeds.
What are you doing here? I mean, why are you not in New York?
Every time I go to New York, I get caught up, and there's sort of like...
There's this enormous hiss of egos at various states of inflation and deflation.
It's all, "Me, me, me, me."
Yeah. Hey, um, sorry, but I got to do this.
Oh, yeah, of course.
So, uh, I gotta ask. What is with the bandana?
- What? What do you mean? -Mmm.
No, people think it's your way of, you know, connecting to a younger reading audience.
Is that what people think?
I don't see many Gen X-ers wearing 'em. Geez.
I kind of wish you hadn't brought this up, man.
I'm sorry about that.
Why?
'Cause now I'm worried it's gonna seem intentional.
Hmm.
Like, if I don't wear it, am I not wearing it
'cause I'm bowing to other people's perception
-that it's a commercial choice? -Right.
Or do I do what I wanna do even though it's perceived as a commercial choice?
And it's like a whole crazy circle I gotta go around now.
- Come on. -Or what... Sorry.
When did you start wearing them?
In Tucson, it was, like, 100 degrees all the time.
I would perspire so heavily, drip in the electric typewriter.
I was nervous I was gonna give myself a shock.
And then at some point, I realized I felt better with them on.
I know that it's a security blanket for me
whenever I feel nervous or I gotta keep myself together.
Makes me feel kind of creepy people view it as an affectation
-or a trademark or something. -Okay.
It's more of a foible.
Like a recognition of a weakness
that I'm kind of afraid my head is gonna explode.
- Right. - Jesus.
Your parents are both academics. Is that right?
Yeah, my dad, philosophy, my mom, English, so...
You'?
- Me? -Yeah.
No, no, my dad is in advertising, and my mom's a painter.
In fact, when they split up, uh, I moved in with her to Soho,
and my brother moved in with my dad.
Sounds like there's a story there.
Oh, there is. I, uh... I just wrote it.
What was it like, you know, growing up in a house divided like that?
Hey. Hey, who's interviewing who?
How old were you when you started writing fiction?
Like, 21, something like that.
- Really? Never before? -Yeah.
Nah, I think I started a World War ll novel when I was, like, nine.
- Did you? -Yeah.
- Oh, that's very ambitious. -Oh, thank you.
It was so good.
- Some of my best work. Yeah. -Come on.
It was about people who, like, hyper-develop skills and powers
going to invade Hitler's bunker.
Hmm, very nice.
And then in college, I wrote a couple papers for other people.
Really? Like, people paid you to write their papers for them?
- I mean, I wouldn't put it that coarsely. -Okay, how would you...
- There was a complicated system of awards. -I see.
I would read, like, two or three of their papers
-and get a sense of what their music was like. -Ah.
And at some point I realized, "I'm really good at this."
I'm like a strange kind of forger.
I can sort of sound like anybody.
That's kind of scary. Um...
Listen, odds are, I'm gonna wanna interview your parents.
- What for? -Just biographical stuff.
Right.
I hereby request that you don't.
- Really? -They're very private people,
and so I would have a problem with that.
Mmm. Okay.
So, no, you may not.
Okay, I may not.
Now boarding Flight 54 to Minneapolis.
Hello. Thank you.
- Crap jobs? - Yeah.
Oh, man, I was a security guard at a software company
-for three-and-a-half months. -Really?
Yeah, I walked around in this polyester uniform...
Mmm.
...under these florescent lights, twirling a baton...
Really?
Checking in on the walkie every 10 minutes,
-like, "All clear at this cubicle." -Right.
That was like every bad '60s novel about meaningless authority.
Right, of course, and you're thinking,
"My God, I had two books come out in my early 20s and here I am."
- No. -No?
No, as a matter of fact, one of the things I liked about that job
-is that I walked around not thinking. Mmm. -Really?
In a very, like, "Huh, a ceiling tile" sort of way.
Right. Okay, and what about after the security guard thing?
Was there anything else?
- Oh, this is the worst. -What?
- Yeah, get this down, okay? -I am.
I was a towel boy at the Chi Chi Health Club.
No. You were a towel boy?
I was called something other than a towel boy.
- I was, in effect, the towel boy. -A towel boy. Yeah, okay.
Occasionally entrusted with checking people in,
-like, "Show your ID." -Right. Oh.
Anyway, so one day I'm sitting there. Who should walk in to get that towel
-but this guy, this writer that I knew? -Yeah.
Who won a Whiting Writers' Award the same year I had.
- Oh, God. -Yeah.
- So, there I am. I'm sitting there. -Yeah.
And I've been up on a rostrum with this guy having Eudora Welty give us an award.
- Mmm. -Two years later, I'm sitting there.
- It's the first time I remember ever actively... -Yeah.
...diving under something that somebody avoids seeing me.
- You dove under a table? -Yeah, something like that.
Did you think you were done then?
Oh. I thought life was over. I was pretty sure.
And was this after your suicide watch?
Okay, how do you know about that?
- I... I read about it somewhere. -Okay.
- This was McLean's, right? -Yeah.
How long were you there?
I was there for eight days.
And why were you there?
Because I was probably afraid that I would do something stupid.
Okay.
- I had a friend in high school... -Yeah.
...who tried to kill himself by sitting in a garage with the car running.
- And what it turned out was, he didn't die. -Mmm-hmm.
Just really fucked up his brain.
And I, you know...
I knew that if anyone was fated to fuck up a suicide attempt, it was me.
Okay, so... All right.
- So, there you are, you're still in your 20s... -My late 20s.
Okay, your late 20s.
And you're in, uh, some kind of pain
about your desire to become some sort of successful literary person.
I think that the not-very-sophisticated diagnosis is that I was depressed.
- Okay. -So, yeah.
At that point, my ego was all tied up in my writing.
Mmm-hmm.
It's the only thing that I had gotten any sort of food palates from the universe for.
And I felt very trapped.
You know, "Uh-oh, my five years are up, and I gotta move on."
I don't wanna move on.
And I felt stuck.
And it's not like I felt stuck because I drank, okay?
It was like...
I felt like my life was over at 28,
and that felt really bad.
I did not wanna feel that, and so I did all sorts of stuff.
- Mmm-hmm. -I would drink real heavy.
- I would fuck strangers. -Mmm.
Sometimes I would not drink at all.
Not drink at all for, like, two weeks.
But instead I would, like, run 10 miles every morning in a desperate...
Like a very American
"I will fix this somehow by taking radical action" sort of thing.
And here you are promoting this acclaimed book.
That's not bad.
David, this is nice.
This is not real.
Oh, by the way, an escort is supposed to pick me up
-and escort me to the reading. -Right.
Of course, when I hear "escort," I picture, like, full geisha...
Right, yeah, of course, right.
Take you to the bookstore and take you back to the hotel,
then walk on your back and then just fuck your eyeballs out.
I think that's her.
Ah, just as I pictured.
- Mr. Wallace. -Dave.
- I recognize you from your photograph. -Okay.
I'm Patty Gunderson.
- And welcome to Minneapolis. -Ah, well, thank you, Patty.
- Uh, hi, I'm David Lipsky. How are you? -Oh, hi.
- Okay, David and David. That's easy. -Yeah.
It's a twin city, so...
Hmm.
We only just met. He's writing a piece on the tour.
Should we get going?
- Yes, come on, come on, great. - Great.
- How's your morning, Patty? - Oh, it's good.
How about you guys? Was the flight all right?
You would not believe the, uh, famous people I've driven.
Shirley MacLaine, when she was on her book tour.
Ron Wood, you know, of the Rolling Stones.
- Of course, yeah, well. - Um...
Peter O'Toole. Oh, my gosh.
Very thin but delightful.
Hey, look, there's the Mary Tyler Moore statue.
Yeah, there it is.
Did you wanna stop?
- Oh. -No, that's fine, thank you.
Are... Are you sure?
Because everybody who comes here, that's the first thing they wanna see.
It's, "Where did Mary Tyler Moore throw her hat up in the air?"
It's really one of our biggest attractions.
Are you sure you don't want me to stop?
- Definitely, no. Thank you, though. -Hmm.
Trust me, this is about as sexy as the tour gets.
- Mister... -Oh, Lipsky.
L-I-P-S-K-Y.
I've got you in a standard double.
- And Mr. Wallace? - Yes.
You have a room with twins.
Ah, yes.
Anita and Consuela.
Excuse me?
All right, man, I'll see you soon. I'm gonna take a nap.
Oh. Uh...
Yeah.
Well, what does he have to say about the heroin rumor?
I haven't gotten to that yet.
What're you waiting for?
What... What am I supposed to say? "Is it..."
"Is it true you are a heroin addict?"
Yes, that's your story.
Oh. Okay, well, that's... It's hard.
Why? Because you like him?
Well... Yeah, yes.
- David, you gotta press him. - Okay.
Be a prick if you have to.
- You're not his best buddy. - I know.
- You're a reporter. - All right, bye.
It's right up here.
Ready?
Yes.
- I can't believe you guys actually came. - Yeah, of course.
- Hi. - Hi.
- Wouldn't miss it. - Hello.
Gluttons for punishment, both of you.
You know us.
Um, this is Dave Lipsky. He's a reporter for Rolling Stone.
- Uh, yes, hi. - Oh.
This is Julie.
- Uh, hi, nice to meet you, Julie. -Hi.
- Great to meet you. -Good.
- And, uh... -This is Betsy.
Betsy and I went to grad school together.
- Oh, how nice. Nice to meet you, Betsy. -Hi.
And, Julie, how do you...
Oh, Julie...
Here, turn this on. This is on, right?
- It is. Why? -Go ahead.
- Do you wanna... I'll do it. -Yeah?
- Julie wrote me a fan letter. -Really? Really?
Mmm-hmm. I really did. I... Yeah.
I was the books editor at City Pages, and I wrote him a fan letter.
Julie's worked with a whole lot of writers.
- So, I was very discriminating. - Oh.
And then it turned out that we actually like each other as people.
- Indeed. - That's actually what happened
with Jon Franzen and me.
- Really? Ah. -I wrote him a fan letter.
Turns out writers are real pushovers when it comes to flattery.
- Are you... -So, you could try that at some point
-if you want us to... -Okay, I got it.
Very subtle. Yeah.
- Friends of friends who have friends as well. -Yeah.
- Yeah, who actually know who... -Cookies?
- Oh. No, thanks a lot. Betsy, you... -No, thank you.
All right, no. Cookies?
- Really? -Yes. And I've been, uh...
- I've actually been sworn to secrecy. -So, you know.
- Are you sure I can't... -I do.
-...get you something to drink? -But I think...
- Wait, sorry. One second. - Oh, no...
Do you have any artificial spit?
- What? -I don't know why you guys are laughing.
It's an actual pharmaceutical product.
- Wait, wait. -Called Zero Lube.
-It's like artificial saliva? -That's right.
- Really? -That's right, David. Yeah.
Except it's better because it actually lubricates.
- Really? - You don't get that, like...
- I see. - That click-y sound.
- Can you do that for Rolling Stone? Yeah. - Yeah, here we go.
I have to remember that.
Oh, that's all right, next tour I'll bring myself a case.
In the meantime, what can I get you?
Uh, just water with no ice, please. Thank you.
Um, so, are you, like, a fiction...
- This is off the record, by the way. -Oh, good.
- Are you a fiction writer? -Uh, I'm a poet, actually.
Really? Would I have seen anything of yours?
I just had my first poem published in The Kenyon Review.
- Really? Wow. That's... - Yes.
- Congratulations. - Thank you.
You know, I'm sorry, I don't mean to be a prima donna,
but do you mind if we don't do a Q and A?
Oh, yeah, of course. Whatever makes you feel most comfortable.
- Thank you. -Sure.
It's just, it's always questions like, "Where do you get your ideas?"
Right.
I don't know, from a Time Life subscription series
for $17.95 a month, right?
Okay. Now, it's showtime.
Okay.
- Here we go. -Yeah.
-It's all downhill from here. -it's fine.
This is the very last stop on his book tour.
And we're very lucky to get him.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to The Hungry Mind,
David Foster Wallace.
- Hello. Hi. -Hi.
...my mother.
- No, I never show... -You never show your mother anything?
- Now I feel embarrassed that I said that. -But that's very sweet.
Yeah, it is, right? See?
What's that supposed to be, a computer?
- No, that's a smiley face. -Oh.
- I can put white-out on it if you want. -That's okay.
It's your book. Okay.
Oh, man, this old thing.
Do you mind?
I don't mind, but the new one's a lot better.
Awesome.
I think I just realized that they want me to be good.
You know what I mean? It's a challenging...
I don't know. It's just something about giving back, you know, in that way,
that made me feel, uh, kind of better about everything.
- Please, give us the... -it's not that there's no story.
Okay, well, how did it happen?
-Okay. -Okay.
I couldn't be regular old Dave Wallace,
'cause there were Dave Wallaces all over the place.
And then David Rains Wallace wrote for The New Yorker,
- I don't know if you remember. -Yeah.
So then one day, it was Fred Hill who asked me...
- Right. -"What's your middle name?"
"David Foster Wallace." That's it. That's the story.
- That's your story? -Yes.
That is, literally, the worst superhero origin story I've ever heard.
- I did not claim that it was an origin story. -it's like Bookman.
Dave, remember in Tucson that professor you kind of locked horns with?
- Oh, man. My nemesis... Mmm-hmm.
...who shall remain nameless.
- Oh, come on. -No, I was just kind of a prick.
I think he was, too.
- Hmm. -I was unteachable.
I don't think I was actively unpleasant in class.
Really?
- You were fairly unpleasant. -Okay, Betsy.
- Really? - Betsy.
Well, I loved it. I loved it.
- Betsy, this is... -No, the more unpleasant, the better.
That's important information.
- He was pleasantly unpleasant. -Okay.
- Thank... That's a great quote. -Sure, sure.
- If you want to quote something. -I'm gonna...
- Destined to be the teacher as well, though. -He was pleasantly unpleasant.
I have to be up unconscionably early for this public radio interview,
-so we should probably get going. -Yeah, but that means
I have to get up early, too.
You know what, you can do whatever the fuck you want.
You know?
You can sleep in if you want to.
- Well, we'll get you back to the hotel, then. -Yeah, yeah.
- Check? -You know what? I will get the check.
- Just go ahead. - No, no, no. Please, this one is on me.
- You don't have to do that. - Well, it's on Jann.
- No, no, no. It's on me. -Who's Jann?
- Jann? - Jann's his boss.
No, this one is on me. it was just so nice to meet you guys.
- Mr. Rolling Stone. - Yeah.
And I'm here, to remind you
Of the mess you left when you went away
It's not fair, to deny me
Of the cross I bear that you gave to me
You, you, you ought to know
You seem very well...
Can you close the window? It's fucking freezing.
Uh, no, sorry, I cannot.
This is our hypothermia smoking tour of the Midwest.
- "Hypothermia smoking tour"? - Yeah.
- I love that. -Oh, thank you.
Sounds like something Dave would say.
Doesn't it?
Did you forget about me, Mr. Duplicity?
I hate to bug you in the middle of dinner
It was a slap in the face...
- Thanks, ladies. - Yeah, sure.
- Yeah, thank you so much. - Sure.
- Yeah, thank you. -Um, what are you doing tomorrow?
- Uh, I'm not sure yet. -Um... Yeah.
- Well, give us a call if you want. -We're here.
- Okay. -All right, will do.
- Thanks again for coming. -Yeah. Thank you so much.
- Nice to meet you, Julie. -See you.
- Bye, Betsy. -See you. You, too.
- Bye, David. -Bye.
That was fun.
- Yeah, it was nice. -Yeah.
- All right, I'm hungry. -Still?
Yeah. It's terrifying when it's happening.
- What? And, um... - Yeah, it's...
How does it feel though?
People fighting to get in, a big line of people wanting to impress you.
I'll tell you what. I think that having an audience of really, really pretty girls,
who are all paying attention to you and kind of like what you're saying.
That's gratifying on a fairly, I think, simple mammal level.
I know. Why is that?
I think pretty girls are what we most dream and despair of
ever having pay attention to us.
There they are in the front row, making eyes at you.
I think my girlfriend is in love with you.
- Come on. -No, really.
No, she's not.
I think she is.
I think she likes your writing better than mine.
That's kind of annoying.
Just get her on the phone.
- What? -Get her on the phone.
No.
No. I don't know. She's...
She's probably sleeping, anyway.
Please?
- SARAHI Hello? - Hi.
How's it going?
It's, uh, fine... Did l wake you up?
No. I'm up reading Infinite Jest.
- Pretty amazing. - Good. No, good.
Uh, listen, I'm here with somebody who wants to talk to you.
Can you hold on a second?
- What's her name again? -it's Sarah.
- Sarah. -Yeah.
Sarah, hi. It's Dave Wallace.
It's nice to meet you telephonically.
Oh, it's nice to meet you telephonically as well.
- Is David behaving himself? - You know what? Let me ask him.
Are you behaving yourself?
She's asking that?
- I'm reasonably sure that he is. -Good.
- I don't have eyes on him 24/7. -Sarah.
Okay.
- What are you doing tonight? -Okay, don't ask her that.
Oh, wow. You're kidding me. Oh, my gosh.
Yes, it's awesome.
- What part are you on? - Page 69.
- Wow, you're really far along. -That's good.
I know. I can't put it down.
- Oh, thank you. -Well, thank you. It's...
I mean, that's very flattering.
Yeah, well, I mean it.
- What the fuck was that about? - What?
You were on the phone with him for, like, a half an hour.
It wasn't a half hour.
It was. it was 25 minutes, okay? I timed it.
You were only supposed to say hello.
David?
David, we gotta go. Uh, the escort's waiting.
-Hey. -Hey.
Sorry.
I got totally, like, sucked into this orgy of crap.
There's a simultaneous broadcast
of Falcon Crest, Magnum, P.l., and Charlie's Angels.
- Yeah, okay. - Perfect stoner shit.
- I'll be out in a second, okay? -Okay.
Call now to order,
and get this free workout video with complete instructions
with 15 Abwork exercises,
plus my 20-minute aerobic workout.
That's everything you need.
- Here, go in. - Can you go around?
- Yeah, yeah, sure. - Thanks.
DAVID; Well...
You're wearing that?
For a radio interview? Uh, yes.
Hi. Dave. Dave Wallace.
I know who you are.
My amanuensis, Mr. Boswell.
- Mr. Boswell. -Very clever. Hi.
Right this way.
We record digitally. I hope that's okay.
So just "yes" or "no" answers?
- That's very funny. - Yeah.
- What? What? -Hey.
- You do a really mean job at this... -Yeah?
- I got, like, 20 years to get you back. -Right.
- You remember that. -You're going to be fine.
My guest today is David Foster Wallace,
who has burst on the literary scene
with his 1079-page,
3-pound, 3-ounce novel,
Infinite Jest.
Jay McInerney called it,
"Something like a sleek Vonnegut chassis wrapped in layers of post-millennial Zola."
David Foster Wallace, welcome to our show.
Thank you. I'm glad to be here.
All right. Now, you have said you saw yourself as, quote,
"A combination of being incredibly shy and being an egomaniac, too."
I believe I said "exhibitionist" also.
Meaning?
I think being shy basically means being self-absorbed
to the extent that it makes it difficult to be around other people.
Difficult for you or difficult for the other people?
Ah, I suppose a little bit of both.
- That was wonderful. - Oh, yeah?
I listened to the whole show. It was so interesting.
- Thanks. -I may have to buy your book and read it.
- Yeah, sorry about that. - Oh. No!
- Wasn't he wonderful? -He was wonderful.
Oh, my gosh. So, you have the rest of the day free.
Where would you like to go?
Do you know where the Mall of America is?
- Yes, I do. - Great.
- Yes, I do. - Really?
Yeah.
So...
I think I wanted to write something that had the sort of texture
of what American life is like now,
- this tsunami of stuff just coming at you. - Right.
- Also it's not unfun, I don't think. -No.
And I don't think so either. No, not at all.
I mean, although it is, uh...
It is sort of heavy though, right? Weight-wise at least.
My friend said when it hit his porch, it sounded like a car bomb going off.
Right. Exactly.
And who do you think your readers are?
Are they, uh... Are they college kids?
The people who seem most enthusiastic are young men, which I guess I understand.
- It's a fairly male book. -Right.
It's a fairly nerdy book, too, about loneliness.
Hmm.
I guess you can expect that someone who's willing to read, and read hard,
like, a 1,000-page book,
is going to be someone with some loneliness issues.
Yeah, right. Mmm.
So, is that what you think the book is about, then?
About loneliness?
I think that if there's a sort of sadness for people under 45,
it has something to do with pleasure and achievement and entertainment.
Like a sort of emptiness at the heart of what they thought was going on,
and maybe I can hope that some parts of the book
-speak to their nerve endings a little bit. -Mmm-hmm.
If you quote any of this, by the way,
you'd do me a great favor by saying this is what I hope for the book. You know?
- This is what the book is trying to achieve. -Yeah.
I don't pretend that it has.
That's... That's fine. Um...
So, the Walter Kirn review in, uh, New York Magazine,
-did you... -I heard about it. I didn't read it.
You didn't read it?
"Next year's book awards have been decided."
How do you feel about that?
- How do I feel about it? - Yeah.
I applaud his taste and discernment.
What do you want me to say? How would you feel about it?
How would I feel?
That something that I had known was really good
was now being validated by somebody else.
All I know is this is absolutely the best I could do between 1992 and 1995.
If everybody had hated it, I wouldn't have been thrilled.
I don't think I would have been devastated, either.
When you're used to doing heavy-duty literary stuff that doesn't sell well,
being human animals with egos,
you accommodate that fact by the following equation.
If something sells really well
-and gets a lot of attention... -Right.
- ...it's got to be shit, right? - Right. Of course.
The ultimate irony is, if your thing starts selling well, it gets a lot of attention.
The very mechanism you use to shore yourself up
-when your thing didn't sell well... -it doesn't work anymore.
- It's now part of the darkness nexus... -Of course.
- When it does, so you're totally screwed. -Mmm.
You know, you can't win.
I don't really see how they could've gotten lost.
- Right. -I mean, it's a straight shot.
Yeah, of course. Right. Just past the food court.
Yeah.
Through the amusement park.
- Through the first watch store. - Yeah.
- Don't go to the aquarium. - Right. Do not.
If you see fudge, you've gone too far.
- Hey. Hello? -Oh.
Hey.
- Hello. - Hey.
- It's good to see you. - Nice to see you.
Thank you for dragging us here.
- Yes. - You'll love it. I know it.
- Hello, Betsy. -it's nice to see you.
- Great. How are you? -it's good to see you.
What's The Juror?
Oh, that's, uh, Demi Moore, John Griffin.
- Oh, right. -Yeah.
- Happy Gilmore? -No.
- That's, what? -No, that's Adam Sandler.
- Right. -What about, uh, Broken Arrow?
It's not a dumb boy movie. Stuff blows up.
I've actually seen that.
- You saw that already? -I did, actually.
- Wow, a man after my own heart. -Terrible.
But I would be happy to see it again if you want to.
No, we can really see anything.
Yes.
That is fantastic.
- Horrible. - Pretty good, huh?
- You have got to be kidding me. - That was a waste of two hours.
And when Travolta got impaled by the thing.
- Yeah. You liked that, huh? -The worst movie I've ever seen.
- He saved humanity, Betsy. -No, he did not.
- Have a heart. -He made it worse.
- You've changed. -He made it worse.
What do we do now?
- Do you have a TV? -Uh-huh.
I do.
-...treating you? -Oh, good.
You know, I mean, and who knows? Okay, I guess, you know.
- Hey, I saw that show the other day... -Jesus Christ.
I know that guy, actually.
Wait... Which one?
- The one playing Letterman. -Really?
- You do? -Yeah.
- How? -We went to Amherst together.
- No. -Yeah.
Was he a friend of yours?
I hated his guts so much.
Of course you did. Right.
Hey, uh, wait. Does anybody want drinks or anything?
- I'm fine, thank you. -No.
- No? Okay. -I'm good, thank you.
But there's also beer in the fridge.
Soda's fine. Thank you.
HOW... Why did you hate him?
It's a pretty simple recipe.
- He was very cool and popular... -Mmm-hmm.
...and I was not.
That was the basic offense.
Look at him now.
Cock of the walk.
Hey.
- Hey. -Uh...
I brought you something.
- Hmm. You brought me something? -Yeah.
What is this?
Oh, my God. This is the, uh...
This is the review where you have your poem in it.
- That's amazing. -Somewhere in there.
- Hey. - Look what's on next.
Algiers, starring Hedy Lamarr. Have you seen that?
That is so nice.
- Um, no. -it's one of the greats.
And Hedy Lamarr is fascinating.
She invented frequency hopping.
- No, she didn't. -Yeah.
I Will. I definitely Will.
Hey, I was wondering,
when I get back to New York, if I have any questions about
what Dave was like in grad school or something, can I... Can I e-mail you?
Sure. If it's okay with Dave.
I'm sure it's fine with Dave.
That's great. So, can I take your e-mail address, then?
Sure. Uh... Yeah.
Oh. That'd be great. Thank you.
Uh, yeah, you could just write it on your book.
- Thank you so much. -Can you read that?
I can see that it is letters, but, uh, no, I'll be fine.
- Thank you so much. -Sure.
- So, it says to drink out on the town? - Yes.
Okay. Great.
What are you doing?
What?
I saw you hitting on Betsy.
Hitting on...
I was... I was talking to her.
David, I saw you.
You got her to give you her address, like...
No, no, no. I got her to give me her e-mail address,
in case I had questions about the piece that I am writing about you.
- Really? Okay. -Yeah, really.
- Well, I'll tell you what, um... -What?
I don't want her talking to you.
- I won't contact her. - Look...
I told you that Betsy and I dated during grad school.
- The least... Look at me. -I am.
The least you could... No, you're not.
The least you could do is show me the respect
of not coming onto her right in front of me.
Dave, I'm sorry if it looked that way, okay? That was not my intention.
And why would I want to get involved with somebody who lives in Saint Paul?
I don't know.
You're already involved with somebody who lives in Los Angeles.
Okay.
Are you okay?
Yeah, everything is fine, thank you.
Okay.
Just stay away from her, okay?
Be a good guy.
What'd I miss?
Everything.
Everything? That seems like a gross exaggeration.
No!No!No!
NO! No!
No, no, no! No, no, no!
Good night.
I got it.
That's all right. My expense account will cover it.
Yeah, so will mine. I said I got it.
Thank you.
Hey, um...
Good night.
- Were you flirting? - Sarah, of course I was not flirting.
He just... He went completely crazy on me.
Well, you do that, David, you know? You're not even aware of it.
- Sorry, I do... What do I do? - You're compulsively flirtatious.
Okay. Well, now you're taking his side.
- I am not. - Yes, you are. Listen, I...
I think... I think I'm just really tired, okay?
I gotta go.
- David?
David?
- Good morning! -Hi.
And how are we this morning?
How you doing, sir?
I think I'll sit up front.
Oh, okay, let me just, um,
get my stuff.
Here you go.
What?
You didn't think to write down where we parked the car?
No, I didn't, okay?
Sorry, I fucked up, all right? I'm a fuck-up.
Not everybody can be as brilliant as you.
- What is with you? -What the fuck is with you?
I gotta say, there's something basically false about your approach here.
What do you mean, "false"?
Yeah, I think it's, uh... I think it's part of your whole social strategy.
In what way?
You still feel you're smarter than other people.
- Oh, really? Really? -Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But you act like you're in the kids' softball game,
but holding back his power hitting,
to try to make it more competitive for the little ones, you know?
- When? -Here.
Now, the past three days. It's part of your social strategy.
You're a tough room, you know that?
It's so obvious, the way you hold back your intelligence
to be with people who are, uh, younger than you or not as agile as you.
Yeah, well, that would make me a real asshole, wouldn't it?
Well...
I don't think writers are smarter than other people.
I think they may be more compelling in their stupidity
or in their confusion.
But I think one of the real ways I have gotten smarter
is I don't think I'm that much smarter than other people.
That's right.
There are ways in which other people are a lot smarter than me.
And I gotta tell you...
-...it makes me feel kind of lonely. -What?
There's been certain stuff I've told you that's been really true.
I think it's been brave of me.
No, no, no. Absolutely...
I've written enough of these pieces, that to know...
- You can write this up 100 different ways. -You're right.
Ninety of which I'm gonna come across as a monumental asshole.
And now it seems to me like your read on this is,
"Wow, what an interesting persona Dave is adopting
-"for the purposes of this interview." -No, no, no.
That's not what I am saying.
If we had done this by the mail, if I had access to my library,
if I could look stuff up...
My dream for this would be for you to write it up,
send it to me and let me rewrite all my quotes,
-which, of course, you'll never do. -Right.
But if I'm in a room by myself, alone, and I have time, I can be really smart.
Yes, I think I'm bright, I think I'm talented.
I'm not trying to sound disingenuous to you.
- Oh. No? -I am not an idiot.
Yes, I can talk intelligently with you about stuff,
but I can't quite keep up with you.
Okay, that is such bullshit.
Oh, believe me, I'm not doing some sort of,
"Oh, shucks, I'm just in from the country. I'm not a real writer,
-"I'm a regular guy" thing. -Okay, okay.
- I'm not trying to lay some shit on you. -Okay, but you did it again, though.
You flatter me, but you're just patronizing.
I just think that to look across a room and to automatically assume
that somebody is less aware,
or that their interior life is somehow less rich and complicated
and acutely perceived as mine, makes me not as good a writer.
- Why? -Because it means
I'm gonna be performing for some faceless audience
instead of trying to have a conversation with a person.
If you think that's faux,
you know what, you think whatever you want.
I got a real serious fear of being a certain way.
And as said, I think of real convictions about why I'm continuing to do this?
Why it's worthwhile? Why it's not just an exercise in getting my dick sucked?
Okay.
This is such a clever tactic on your part.
- Tactic? What tactic? -That's right.
Get me a little pissed off, get me a little less guarded,
I'm gonna reveal more.
Yes, it's true. I treasure my regular guy-ness.
Mmm-hmm.
I've come to think that maybe it's my biggest asset as a writer,
that I'm basically just like everybody else.
Yeah.
You know what?
I'm not doing any kind of faux thing with you,
and I'm not gonna say it again.
Okay, but that faux thing, what you just said,
is an example of the faux thing.
You're not willing to risk giving the full you.
I don't know if you're a very nice man or not.
It's very clear you don't believe a word that I've said.
All your protesting, you know, "I'm just a regular guy."
You don't crack open a 1,000-page book
because you heard the author is a regular guy.
You do it because he's brilliant, because you want him to be brilliant.
So, who the fuck are you kidding?
I don't have the brain cells left to play any kind of faux games with you.
- So. .. Yeah. -Mmm. It's fine. Yeah, it's fine.
What are you thinking?
- Tour is over. -Yeah.
- That just hit you. - Yeah.
I'm gonna have to kind of feel all this now instead of just sleepwalk through it.
Mmm. What do you mean, "sleepwalking"?
I sort of unplugged myself the past three weeks.
Meeting a whole lot of new people and having to do stuff,
you're in this constant low-level state of anxiety.
This deep, existential fear you feel all the way down in your butthole.
What are you afraid of? I mean...
What's the worst that could possibly happen?
The worst? That I really get to like it.
That's the worst.
- The attention? -Yeah.
What would be so wrong with that?
Become one of these hideous, like,
"Yet another publication party.
"Hey, there's Dave, sticking his head in the back of the photo."
Rather be dead.
Why?
I don't wanna be seen that way.
Why, would you?
Well, if you're deriving your satisfaction from talking about your work
instead of actually writing,
then, yeah, I mean, I guess you get a lot less done.
Exactly. There's nothing more grotesque than somebody going around saying,
"I'm a writer. I'm a writer. I'm a writer."
I don't mind appearing in Rolling Stone.
I don't want to appear in Rolling Stone
as somebody who wants to be in Rolling Stone.
You'll see me on a game show in the next couple of years, I swear to God.
To have written the book about how seductive image is,
how easy it is to get seduced off of any meaningful path
because of the way our culture is now.
What if I become a parody of that very thing?
You know, tomorrow you drive away,
and you get on a plane, and this whole thing is over.
I go back to knowing, like, 20 people.
I'm gonna have to decompress from all this attention,
because it's like getting heroin injected into your cortex.
And where I'm gonna need real balls
is to sit and go through that
and try to remind myself of what the reality is.
That I'm 34 years old,
and I'm alone in a room with a piece of paper.
Hey, there you are.
I'll never leave you again. I swear.
Holy shit, Drone.
Look what you did.
A little excremental work.
We certainly won't need this anymore, huh?
Sorry, it happens to the best of us, boy.
Never fails.
Wait to do their thing until after the dog sitter leaves.
Make sure your Rolling Stone readers hear about that.
Okay.
Hey, so, I'm leaving tomorrow.
And, um...
I gotta ask you about this rumor.
- Is this the heroin thing? -Yeah.
- Is this the heroin thing again? -Yeah.
It isn't true. What is so hard for you to believe?
The reason it is so hard to believe
is because there is so much about drugs and addiction in the book.
That doesn't mean that it's autobiographical.
The book stuff is meant to be a metaphor.
What is...
You don't believe a fucking word that I've said, do you?
I didn't say that.
I was not, I never was, a heroin addict.
Okay.
The rumor I heard was that in the late '80s, when you were at Harvard,
you got involved with drugs, and you had some kind of breakdown.
I don't know if...
I don't know if I had a breakdown. I got very, very depressed.
- I told you that. -Yeah.
It had nothing to do with drugs.
I have spent most of my life in libraries.
I never lived that dangerous kind of life,
and I would never stick a needle into my arm.
Okay, so how do you think that rumor...
- I have no idea. -Okay! All right.
All right, calm down.
And I'm telling you,
if you were to structure this as some sort of, like,
"And then he spiraled into terrible addiction" sort of thing,
-it would be inaccurate. -Okay.
It was much more that I got more and more unhappy.
The more unhappy I got, the more I would drink.
There was no joy in that drinking,
I used it for anesthesia.
-Okay? -Okay.
Um, what kind of drinker were you?
Were you a kind of falling-down drinker
or were you a waking-up-on-the-curb drinker?
- No, I was not, okay? -All right.
All right.
Part of my reticence about this whole thing is that it won't make very good copy for you,
because no, I was not like that at all.
- You did agree to this interview. -I know that I did.
All right, I'm not gonna push much further, sorry.
I'm also aware that some addictions are sexier than others.
My primary addiction my entire life has been to television.
I told you that.
Now, television addiction is of far less interest to your readers
than something like heroin, that confirms the mythos of the writer.
- Yeah, a myth I do not believe, okay? -Right.
No, I know you don't believe that.
I'm also aware that one of the things that's swirling around here
is you wanna have the best fucking article you can have.
So, you know what? Why don't you write whatever the fuck you want?
I am telling you
that this was not a Lost Weekend sort of thing.
Nor was it some lurid, romantic, "writer is alcoholic" sort of thing.
What it was, was a 28-year-old person
who had really exhausted a couple other ways to live.
Like, really taken them to their conclusion.
Which for me, was a pink room with a drain in the center of the floor,
which is where they put me for an entire day
when they thought that I was gonna kill myself.
Where I had nothing on,
I've got someone observing me through a... Through a slot in the wall.
And when that happens to you, you become tremendously,
just unprecedentedly, willing
to examine some other alternatives for how to live.
Hey, you awake?
Yeah.
Look, I was just thinking, um...
It wasn't a chemical imbalance, and it wasn't drugs and alcohol.
I think, um,
it was much more that I had lived an incredibly American life.
This idea that if I could just achieve X and Y and Z,
that everything would be okay.
Um...
There's a thing in the book
about how when somebody leaps from a burning skyscraper.
It's not that they're not afraid of falling anymore,
it's that the alternative is so awful.
And so, then you're invited to consider what could be so awful
that leaping to your death would seem like an escape from it.
And I don't know if you have any experience with this kind of thing,
but it's worse than any kind of physical injury.
Yeah, maybe in the old days what was known as a spiritual crisis,
feeling as though every axiom in your life turned out to be false,
and there is actually nothing.
And that you are nothing.
And it's all a delusion, and you have...
You're so much better than everybody
'cause you can see that this is just a delusion,
and you're so much worse because you can't fucking function.
It's really horrible.
I don't think that we ever change. Um...
I'm sure that I still have those same parts with me.
Um...
I guess I'm trying really hard to find a way not to let them drive.
You know?
Hey, um... Okay.
Good night.
Mmm.
Hi. Okay, m.
Hey, okay, good morning. Good morning.
Morning, man.
Come on, boys.
Let's go. Good boys.
Come on. What are you doing?
Jeeves!
Jeeves, come on, boy.
We get instantaneous production from the Jeevmeister firm.
it is so beautiful out here.
Yeah.
You should see it in the spring when the wind blows.
- You can see ripples. - Ah.
It's like water.
- It's like the ocean, but real green. - Mmm.
Really is.
Kind of calm. Real pretty.
- Are you hungry? -Uh...
Yeah, kind of, but, um...
God, I don't think I wanna go back.
Yeah, I know how you feel.
We should probably get going, though.
Okay.
Hey, let me take you someplace nice this time.
It'll be on Jann.
- Thanks for holding the bag, man. -Of course.
- I gotta eat something, I'm suddenly starving. -Mmm.
Hmm.
Mmm, you don't like pickles.
- Oh, come on. -What?
What, the whole world needs to know what my mother's known for years,
-that I'm a picky eater? -All right. Okay, I'm putting it away.
- Thank you. -All right.
Hey, can I give him a fry?
- No. -Come on.
- Yeah, yeah, go for it. -Hey, Jeevmeister!
Hey!
- Watch this. -What?
Jeeves. Jeeves. Sit.
Jeeves, sit.
Sit.
- Perfect. -Sit.
Ah. Drone gets super-obedient when food is around.
- Jeeves, he's still kind of a wild man. -Yeah.
Do not leave food out around him. He will go for it.
Good boy.
You're such a good...
You're not gonna make me look like I'm one of those insane old women
who talks to their dogs, are you?
Um... No. Don't worry about it.
I am worried about it. My dogs are gonna be offended.
The dogs are not gonna read this article.
- I gotta tell you... -Mmm.
...they've never taken to a man the way they've taken to you.
- Really? -Yeah.
- Except me, of course. Yeah. -Yeah.
Oh, can you hold this?
- Yeah, of course. -Thanks.
Hello?
- Hey. - Do you wanna go?
Yes, I would like to. Um...
I can't right now. I've got this guy here.
What guy?
You mean the guy from the magazine?
- Rolling Stone guy, yeah. -So...
You know what, can I just meet you there?
Yeah.
Okay, great. Yeah, perfect.
- Yeah. -I'll see you there. Bye.
Hmm. All right. Well, I should, uh... I should probably get out of here.
Let you get on with your life.
That's... No, it's...
There's just this dance that I like to go to.
Sorry, you... You dance?
Yeah, it's something I've discovered over the past couple of years I really like.
Although I'm not that good at it yet.
Wait, sorry, what kind of dancing?
I tend to do, like, the jerk, the swim, you know.
Like, cheesy '70s disco.
Really?
Yeah, it's one of the things about living in Bloomington.
It's like a time warp, you're completely hip if you do that.
Right. Right. So, where do you go? To a club?
No, I go to this Baptist church.
Why... Why do you go there?
Baptists can dance.
Ah. Yeah. Well, dancing.
I will not vogue.
That is where I put my foot down. I do not vogue.
Yeah. It's really cool though.
Like, a lot of people show up and they got their dancing shoes on.
So, it's good. It's nice.
Everyone, for the most part, just leaves each other alone.
You know, I thought it might be nice, before you go, if...
Uh, maybe we could exchange address data or something.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I'll get my stuff together.
Great. I'll start carving an ice sculpture out of my car.
It's like Antarctica out there.
Uh, dog stuff, throw toys, chew toys, crap stains on carpet.
Uh, fireplace, American flag, shark doll and bookcase, Alanis poster.
Uh, soda cans, lots of them, there's Pepsi, there's Mountain Dew.
Um, looks like a frat, but a kind of bookish frat.
Uh, there's a Botticelli calendar, uh, Birth of Venus.
Uh, wooden chess set, um, postcard of Updike.
Um, brain comparison, uh, male, female, dog, cartoon.
Uh...
In the bedroom, there is a Barney towel used as a curtain.
There is a tennis ball, there is a dental floss on top of books.
There is a photo collage of his family, the kind kids put in their dorm rooms.
His sister is kind of pretty, she looks like a female version of him.
There is, uh, stuff everywhere.
Clothes everywhere, sneakers on the floor, clothes draped over stuff.
Uh...
Uh, blue toilet seat cover, looks like a rug.
Postcards, the Clintons, baboons.
A Saint Ignatius quote.
"Lord, teach me to be generous. Teach me to serve you as you deserve.
"To give and not to count the cost, to toil and not to seek for rest,
"to labor and not to ask for reward,
"save that of knowing that I do your will."
Hey.
I'll tell you what, riding around in that rental of yours,
that feeling of gliding...
This thing doesn't even have shock absorbers.
What is it?
It's just an old Civic.
I know it doesn't look like much, but, man, this thing starts.
It's actually a problem.
Wow. Why is that a problem?
I gotta get a new one, but I can’t junk this.
Why not?
I'll lose my friend.
Ah.
Hey, David, I, uh...
Wow, just happened to have one on you, huh?
Yeah.
I mean, I... I did debate whether or not I should do this.
- Why? -I don't know.
Don't you think it's some kind of kid brother sort of thing to do?
No.
Thank you. I look forward to reading this.
Oh, you're welcome. I put my, uh...
Put my address and e-mail on the flyleaf.
Oh. Okay. Cool.
I'll, uh... Yeah, I'll read it after I finish the Heinlein and I'll send you a note.
That's great. Thanks.
It'd be interesting to be inside your head for a while.
I like your cover.
Yeah. Yeah, me 1100.
I actually had them use the same art for the British edition.
Come on. You got approval on it.
It's nice. It's very nice.
Don't worry about it. It was not such a... Not such a big success.
Hey, isn't it at all reassuring to have a lot of people read you
and, you know, say that you're a really strong writer?
Yeah, it'll be interesting to talk to you in a few years.
Why do you say that?
My experience says that that is not so.
The more people think you're really great,
actually, the bigger the fear of being a fraud is, you know.
The worst thing about getting a lot of attention paid to you
is that you're afraid of bad attention.
And if bad attention hurts you,
the caliber of the weapon pointed at you has gone way up, you know.
Like, from a .22 to a .45.
Hmm.
Look, there are parts of me that want a lot of attention
and think I'm really great, and want other people to see it.
I think that's one of the ways you and I are sort of alike, you know.
All right. Hey.
All right.
- Okay. -David.
I'm not so sure you wanna be me.
I don't.
Give my best to Jann.
"When I think of this trip,
"I see David and me in the front seat of his car.
"We are both so young.
"He wants something better than he has.
"I want precisely what he has already.
"Neither of us knows where our lives are going to go.
"It smells like chewing tobacco, soda and smoke.
"And the conversation is the best one I ever had.
"David thought books existed to stop you from feeling lonely.
"If I could, I'd say to David
"that living those days with him reminded me of what life is like,
"instead of being a relief from it.
"And I'd tell him it made me feel much less alone."
I need to use your bathroom for a second.
Yeah, I believe it's unoccupied.
It's me. I'm talking to the tape recorder.
I got Drone sitting behind me, just chilling out.
I'm smoking.
Having just said I wouldn't smoke, I'm smoking.
Just me and your tape recorder.